Bushwalk Australia

Hi all,

I was wondering how fellow Taswegian ULers (and those from elsewhere who have bushwalked here) have found wearing lightweight trail runners on our tracks, particularly when it is wet, cold and/or very rocky?

I'm mulling over ditching my well worn Goretex Scarpas... they've been rather good boots and still have a bit of life left in them (despite losing an argument with a chainsaw at one point) but they weigh 850gr a hoof, and if the adage of '1KG on your foot is worth 5 on your back' is true, then that's a shedload of extra weight I'm carrying around. There's also the question of waterproofness vs dry-out time; because I usually fish most places I hike, and invariably end up in the water a bit to retrieve or release trout, I tend to get the boots wet eventually and being Goretex/suede, they don't dry particularly fast.

I've read up on the all the current theories about embracing wet feet and using fast-draining shoes and quick drying socks to let them dry out 'on the move'.... that all makes sense and to be honest seems vastly preferable. On the other hand, walking through ice cold water or even snow could be at best very uncomfortable - or at worst, potential frostbite territory - if your socks and shoes don't dry out because it's too cold/wet. Obviously I wouldn't be silly enough to take such shoes on a winter/snow trek, but even in otherwise perfectly suitable warm summer conditions, random blizzards are a genuine possibility up the highlands/plateau.

The other big question mark for me is snakes. The combination of heavy Scarpas and knee-high gaiters is pretty confidence-inspiring bashing around the Western Lakes scrub in the heat of summer. I'm pretty careful about watching where I step and tend to see snakes well before I come near them, but figure it is only a matter of time before I manage to step on or very close to one. I know Tiger fangs are easily thwarted even with light materials but those mesh uppers on most trail runners aren't confidence inspiring, especially if you've got equally thin socks underneath.

An alternative to the typical lightweight mesh runner (ie. Inov8 Rocklite 315/295 etc) I'm considering is a lightweight Goretex boot aka. Roclite 286GTX. A bit more material, more waterproof/resistant but still a fraction of the weight of the Scarpas. Price is also pretty good too... in fact I could see myself buying a pair of each, the boots being the 'highlands' option, whereas the shoe-style runners would be for East/South coast trails.

Anyone got any experiences they can share?

Cheers, Ben.

Hi Ben,
I've done all my summer Tassie trips in runners (WA, OT, Southern Ranges) in runners.
Any good trail runner (Asics, Salomons etc) is fine. Sorry, no experience of Inov8's.
They dry quickly and usually have great grip!
Runners are fine with some snow, but not all day, every day on a long trip.
At this time of year, yeah, ... I'd be grabbing my boots!

Seeing as my Scarpa trek pros have finally delaminated I'm in a similar situation to you, Ben.

I'm considering testing some older, robust sneakers to see how I'll deal with it.

I will preface my reply with the ususal disclaimer..... what works for me may not work for others. You need to do what is appropriate for your experience level & the places you will be walking in to make sure you will be safe & comfortable.....

I have found that I am quite happy to walk in trail runners in fairly cold, wet & snowy conditions. My feet don't seem to feel cold & with a good pair of thick wool socks I am plenty warm enough for extended walking in snow & wet slush for several days if the weather is not extremely cold (not below about -5 C). I personally wouldn't set out on a mid-winter trip into an alpine area in trail runners, but for the rest of the year, yes, for me they work really well.

Intestwesting question, Ben. I'm experimenting at the moment. Bought a pair of very comfy Vasque trail runners recently, as an achilles problem makes boots a bad option at times.

So far I've tried:
- with 2 pairs of woollen socks (merino inners), the cold water feel lasts a few minutes, then my feet are toasty again - until the next icy puddle/creek/waterfall-on-the-track. So my choice will depend on the walk / forecast. Not keen on icy all day!

- the merino liners under waterproof socks (which I know aren't popular with some here, but hey, they were half price and worth a shot!). It's not as warm as I hoped, but warmer than the above option, and I'm looking forward to trying this out some more. My new MicroSpikes fit the runners as well as my boots.

I haven't had the trail runners in mud yet - I'd definitely choose the waterproof sock option to avoid mud-encrusted woollen ones.

These particular trail runners are less grippy on slippery rocks than my boots, but not too bad. I'm sure the fabric wouldn't stand up to much serious bouldering.

Re snakes - I'm not worried re that, as the only exposed part is the top of the foot, which I think is an unlikely strike point. (I always wear gaiters.)

hey ben,

i've been using the inov8s flyroc 310 for the last few years in tassie, year round. i usually get about a year out of them before they literally fall apart. thats doing a fair bit of walking though and i do wear them to work often. they dont make the flyroc anymore so i have switched over to the roclite 295 since a few months ago. only done about 30 hours of walking with them, but so far i'm impressed. i tend to wear the same sock year round which is the darn tough "boot sock cushion" model. even in mid winter with wet shoes and socks and walking in the snow i find this setup good. i find if i keep the rest of my body warm, make sure i keep up my fluids and food and have a short break every hour or two, i never have cold feet. and i enjoy walking in light comfortable shoes with good grip. will never go back to clod hoppers.

cam.

if you dont have experience without ankle support on trails and you go to shoes, gradually work into the trips you do with them, make sure your ankles are up to it... some people stay away from shoes as they find their ankles tend to sprain more, other people have little problem on rough terrain.. also depends on hte weight of your pack... again some people prefer ankle support with a heavier pack, i prefer bmd height lightweight boots like salomons, essentially beefed up runners.... thats what i used whn i was walking in tas...

Excellent point, Wayno.
Forgot to mention - so far, I've only used the runners with my you-beaut ankle brace on my dodgy ankle (which is particularly dodgy at the moment).

Thanks heaps for the info guys. Sounds like it is a worthy exercise... might start off with the 286GTXs for the start of the season up the lakes and see how they fare, if all good I'll probably look at a mesh shoe for the summer... we're planning on doing the Freycinet circuit and hopefully Cape Hauy/Pillar, I'd say they'd be a safe bet.

wayno wrote:if you dont have experience without ankle support on trails and you go to shoes, gradually work into the trips you do with them, make sure your ankles are up to it..

Very good point indeed. I won't be ditching the Scarpas until I've finished upgrading my 'big 3'. That'll cut my total pack weight from 15-16kg to hopefully around 7-8KG. I don't have any issues with my ankles otherwise, but it pays to play it safe.

Cheers, Ben.

cameron wrote:hey ben,

i've been using the inov8s flyroc 310 for the last few years in tassie, year round. i usually get about a year out of them before they literally fall apart. thats doing a fair bit of walking though and i do wear them to work often. they dont make the flyroc anymore so i have switched over to the roclite 295 since a few months ago. only done about 30 hours of walking with them, but so far i'm impressed. i tend to wear the same sock year round which is the darn tough "boot sock cushion" model. even in mid winter with wet shoes and socks and walking in the snow i find this setup good. i find if i keep the rest of my body warm, make sure i keep up my fluids and food and have a short break every hour or two, i never have cold feet. and i enjoy walking in light comfortable shoes with good grip. will never go back to clod hoppers.

cam.

Hey Cam,

How does your set up go in serious mud? Maybe I'm concerned unnecessarily.

I wasn't going to reply.....but what would a boot vs runner thread be if I didn't.
I'm a runners fan but do have a nice pair of Zamberlan Crosser PLus GTX boots that I have a few km's in now. Would have liked the inov-8 boots but with nowhere to try them on locally and a mountain designs voucher the zamberlan it was for me.
Quite happy with them.
My use has been hunting in them mostly, last trip was really wet but cold. Lots of slow movement or just stationary.
Used my runners first day. COLD feet. Just not enough movement to keep the feet warm. First experience with this but hey I'm being honest.
For a walking trip I'll take runners, even in the cold I have some very thin neoprene socks which are very warm when wet (Didn't take them on the hunting trip)
The little Zamberlan boots were great for the low movement in wet conditions.

Your fishing might be a similar thing with low movement in the wet but on my trip I didn't get water over the tops of the boots. Used some small eVent gaiters and problem solved.

It might be worth you looking into a pair of thin neoprene socks if you do go the runner route.
IMO the Inov-8 trailrocs are a better shoe than the roclites. Trailroc 245's are great but only 3mm drop so ease into that if your not used to it, same goes for any runners.

FYI I've tried WPB socks with runners. Wasn't a fan.
There's some good discussion here.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... d_id=61909

hey tortoise,

yeah no dramas in the mud. i wear gaiters about half the time, usually only when its warmer and no need for rain pants.my rain pants are pretty durable and protect my legs from scrub without the need for gaiters. even though, with trail runners and wearing gaiters or rainpants the mud gets in my shoes a bit. the socks i wear are a tight weave and keep the bigger bits of mud and crap from getting on the inside of the sock. i dont try and keep mud out of my shoes or try keeping my feet clean, i just hit it and enjoy a good mud foot bath. at the end of every day i can almost always find a lake, creek, small pool of water near or at my camp to give my shoes and socks a good rinse, so they are half clean for the next day. this is important in winter when my socks and shoes are often frozen in the morning and i need to wee on them to get them on my feet. its easier not to have frozen mud to deal with also.

cam.

Thanks Cam. Good to hear it works in your experience. Maybe I'm a bit of a princess when it comes to grit in my socks! Reckon i'll try my waterproof socks first, for the ultimate tightness of weave.

this is important in winter when my socks and shoes are often frozen in the morning and i need to wee on them to get them on my feet. its easier not to have frozen mud to deal with also.

Ew! S'pose it's never more than a day old. (I have been known to wee in my wet suit, but that's different!)

Since my first experience of frozen boots/socks, I've avoided it by sticking my socks in a freezer bag under my feet or at the bottom of my sleeping bag. Boots in a bag under my pillow.

haha doesn't everyone wee in their wettie?

thats a good tip about the socks in a freezer bag and boots in a bag. thanks tortoise, i will give it a try.

cam.

if you're boiing water for anything in the morning, let it cool a bit and pour on your socks and footwear

cameron wrote:haha doesn't everyone wee in their wettie?

No. It's counter productive (apart from the smell when you undress). First, regular urination in a wetsuit degrades the material, especially around the seams. Second, it actually cools you down in the long run.
Of course, on longer dives it's probably going to happen - human physiology being what it is, divers' diuresis is inevitable - but it's best avoided when possible.

forest wrote:My use has been hunting in them mostly, last trip was really wet but cold. Lots of slow movement or just stationary.
....
Your fishing might be a similar thing with low movement in the wet but on my trip I didn't get water over the tops of the boots. Used some small eVent gaiters and problem solved.

May well be, though generally we move fairly regularly when fly fishing (unless we spy fish, of course)... I honestly hadn't thought about trail runners for hunting, my current somewhat-waterproof hunting boots are actually pretty light (500gr-ish) for a full height boot and reasonably supportive. That said, I wouldn't like to be wearing them if I need to pack out 40KG of fallow deer several kms over rough terrain. Probably a situation where the heavy Scarpas would be better.... shame we don't have hog deer here too... they're more UL compatible!

forest wrote:It might be worth you looking into a pair of thin neoprene socks if you do go the runner route.

Backpacking North (Mark Roberts) has a very interesting theory on this... http://www.backpackingnorth.com/ultrali ... t-a-break/

It's obviously only one person's opinion, but some serious thought has gone into it and it makes a lot of sense. Essentially, you take 3 pairs of socks with you.

* A thin synthetic or merino pair, which are worn while walking, designed to shed water, breathe perspiration and dry fast if and when they get wet.
* A waterproof pair to wear while in camp, to keep your feet warm and dry (once dried) when not on the move and help dry out your wet shoes if possible.
* A warm, thicker pair of socks kept dry at all times for sleeping in.

The theory is that while you're on the move, you're feet will produce warmth and with a fast drying, non waterproof sock and shoe combination, your feet will soon warm up and dry out from the odd dunking in water.... whereas in a waterproof boot and/or sock, lack of breathability will invariably result in wet feet from perspiration that can't escape, regardless of how much actual water you're walking in.

In summer when its warm, I see that being the smart option. However if you're regularly walking in cold water/ice/snow to the point where your feet are struggling to stay warm, neoprene or Goretex socks would be safer I'd say - better warm and wet than cold and wet.

Hmmm... sounds like much experimentation to be done. Anybody know if Inov-8s can be bought in a bricks-n-mortar store in Tasmania? Apparently their sizing is a bit funky, might make buying online a bit tricky.

Cheers, Ben.

I wore salomon XT wings runners on a couple of days of the south coast track in jan this year (once my boots became wet). i found them to be warmer and more comfortable than my boots, surprisingly, with just a thin pair of darn tough socks. The darn toughs are almost felted they are that closely knit so I think that contributed to the warmth.
The shoes themselves did not cause my feet any issues but the sole did not grip nearly as well as the vibram soles on my boots. the shoes were excellent in mud, I thought.

if i had my time again i would not bother taking boots at all but similar shoes with a deeper tread possibly these:
http://www.salomon.com/au/product/fellraiser.html
or these;
http://www.backcountry.com/salewa-mount ... -shoe-mens

I use inov x talon 212 runners. These have a softer rubber than most runners I believe. I find the softer rubber gripes much better than the usual harder vibran soles on boots. Many adventure racers use this model. On my last Nepal trip people with boots were slipping at places where the inov were solid as a rock The disadvantage is the rubber wears a bit faster than normal. I am on my third pair. There are super light at 212 gms and dry fast when wet.
I do find I need to steam the heels for 30 seconds and then wear them to mold the heal to my foot. Otherwise blisters at first wearing.

I recently transitioned to inov8 trailroc 245s - but with ankle braces for support.

The coldest I have used them was NZ in early autumn - not super cold but I think I can judge based on similar conditions compared to Tassie - where I have walked all seasons and conditions in boots.

I would say, get the socks right and they can be as warm or warmer than boots in most conditions (certainly cold water, even snow). I used wool socks (Darn Tough), NRS Hydroskins (neoprene) and also had vapour barrier socks which I didn't use on this trip (have used them with boots). Pay attention to socks!

The wool socks were actually about the warmest. Even after walking through a glacial melt stream, I would say the wool sock and shoe combo is a tad warmer than the wool sock and boot combo as the socks wring dryish so quickly. Also the wool were probably warmer than the neoprene unless constantly going through water (and I mean constant). Indeed I was often walking into streams at the end of the day just to wash all the mud off the shoes and socks without fear of being left cold. I wouldn't hesitate to take them on a winter trip in Tassie with the right socks. Vapour barrier socks are for snow.

Grip is great, not as good in some ways (e.g. edging / steep scrambling) as good boots but make up elsewhere (e.g. mud and grass). Having the light weight on the feet is a blessing.

No surprise on the grip with the Inov8 X 212. The few studs in the sole will undoubtedly grip well and wear out in little time too. Needs a deep pocket to make that selection.

GPSGuided wrote:No surprise on the grip with the Inov8 X 212. The few studs in the sole will undoubtedly grip well and wear out in little time too. Needs a deep pocket to make that selection.

I think you would find for just walking you would wear out the actual shoe foam and upper before the tread. After all it's only walking, unless you scuff your feet heaps.
I was getting around 12 months good use out of my 295's with the sticky rubber just walking and it was the upper that would eventually fail, the foam sole structure would be mush too.
Running, different game and yes the tread will wear out, chew'd up the soles in a few months. But that's more km's and a lot more scuffings etc.

The talons are an amazingly grippy shoe, but not what I'd be pack walking with. Something with a bit more rock protection in the sole is what I'd chase but each to there own.

Great tip on the steaming the heels. That works a treat doesn't it. Never a blister with this method.

For summer I think they are fine. I wore Tevas when I did a lloong day trip to Federation Peak a few years ago. Much more comfortable than boots. No problems losing them to suck in the deep mud and since they weren't waterproof the water drained back out of them quickly after the frequent deep water and mud.

I've been wearing GoreTex lined runners on a few jogs in the snow lately. The only downside is in deep snow you get snow inside the shoe and it gets a bit colder than I like.

These are the shoes I bought a while back - very comfy, but sometimes a bit cold in Tassie. Yet to get the Darn tough socks.

The main problem, though, is that the mesh is not sturdy enough even to cope with some tracks I've been on - one on track walk with bits of overhanging vegetation, and the mesh is showing lots of wear - fraying etc. How come other people don't have this problem? Do you only have shoes with the more robust mesh? I'm looking for suede options, but haven't found anything that looks tough enough - always some of the more delicate mesh.

My achilles tendon is particularly annoying at the moment, so even my soft boots are irritating it. I foolishly didn't bring the runners with me while i'm away for a while, so all i can wear are my op shop joggers - that come up a bit high and aren't so good for the tendon. So i'm keen to get a pair soon.

Thanks for any ideas.

I have the same Vasques as Tortoise.

I wear them a lot and find them extremely comnfortable (both bushwalking and everyday) with darn toughs.

Only complaint is that they can be a bit slippery at times.

I am interested in this thread as one of the guided Tas walks I would like to do in the future appears to have a no boots no walk policy.

When I'm not in boots, it's Merrell Moabs. The mesh has survived the Larapinta (including a lot of off-track stuff), about 100km of other NT/Wozzie tracks, and a fair serve of Tassie mud,rock and scrub both on and off-track. The suede toe covering is wearing through but otherwise (except for the dirt) they're as new.

Interesting variation: neoprene dirt collar at the ankle.

http://gearjunkie.com/asics-runnagade

north-north-west wrote:When I'm not in boots, it's Merrell Moabs. The mesh has survived the Larapinta (including a lot of off-track stuff), about 100km of other NT/Wozzie tracks, and a fair serve of Tassie mud,rock and scrub both on and off-track. The suede toe covering is wearing through but otherwise (except for the dirt) they're as new.

Thanks, NNW. Are they the Ventilator or Goretex Moabs? There's also a leather Moab, but I'm guessing from your suede comment that it's not that.

icefest wrote:Interesting variation: neoprene dirt collar at the ankle.

http://gearjunkie.com/asics-runnagade

Never seen that one, Icefest. Interesting indeed. I'm guessing you found it on the net rather than having used a pair? Edit: I didn't process the fact that it's for release in 2015

Tortoise wrote:

north-north-west wrote:When I'm not in boots, it's Merrell Moabs. The mesh has survived the Larapinta (including a lot of off-track stuff), about 100km of other NT/Wozzie tracks, and a fair serve of Tassie mud, rock and scrub both on and off-track. The suede toe covering is wearing through but otherwise (except for the dirt) they're as new.

Thanks, NNW. Are they the Ventilator or Goretex Moabs? There's also a leather Moab, but I'm guessing from your suede comment that it's not that.

Goretex, which is OK for Tassie and the Aust Alps, but was a major mistake on the northern stuff.
The toe covering issue is, I think, more due to the odd shape of my big toes (due to past fractures) than anything else. Will be trying to patch that up before it gets any worse.