Fire Maple gas canister adapter

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Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby Stibb » Thu 12 Jan, 2012 4:54 pm

Does anyone have anything to say about this adapter?

http://ivy-camp.en.made-in-china.com/pr ... -702-.html

I've been thinking of getting the Fire Maple 116T or the 100T. With this adapter it seems like 116T would have an edge because of its weight + in winter you could just bring the adapter and turn the canister upside down if necessary.

Thoughts?
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby Maelgwn » Thu 12 Jan, 2012 6:01 pm

116T doesnt have a pre heat tube, so you would need to home make something to allow you to run the canister upside down ... (e.g. "heat shunt" using brass or alu - see BPL for lots of details!)
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby corvus » Thu 12 Jan, 2012 7:35 pm

Stibb wrote:Does anyone have anything to say about this adapter?

http://ivy-camp.en.made-in-china.com/pr ... -702-.html

I've been thinking of getting the Fire Maple 116T or the 100T. With this adapter it seems like 116T would have an edge because of its weight + in winter you could just bring the adapter and turn the canister upside down if necessary.

Thoughts?

G'day Stibb,
I have all three of these :oops: :roll: ( my adapter is branded Brunton) and yes they are all good however as Maelgwn mentioned you would need to "cobble up" a heat transfer for the adapter which I did to enable you to invert the canister.
FMS100T weighs 200g, FMS116T + Adapter weigh 192g,the 100T is in my opinion one of the best canister stoves on the market and is my stove of choice now (out of the many I own) it is stable really can simmer and worth the money but I am biased :)
Hope this helps.
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby gmrza » Thu 12 Jan, 2012 8:21 pm

Maelgwn wrote:116T doesnt have a pre heat tube, so you would need to home make something to allow you to run the canister upside down ... (e.g. "heat shunt" using brass or alu - see BPL for lots of details!)


I went through a similar decision process, and opted for the Kovea Camp-5, which hopefully will reach me in the next few days. My reasoning in the end was the being able to go ultra-light is not a priority for me right now, and I can always get a stove like a FMS-116T if I need an ultra-light stove. The Camp-5 weighs in at 156g, and has a generator tube, so I can use it with an inverted canister, without having to cobble anything myself - says he who just repaired an Apple Airport Express with a blown power supply.... I was able to order an adapter from Kovea as well that will allow me to use cheap butane cans on the stove in summer (which the FMS-702 allows you to do too).
Part of my consideration though was that the Camp-5 will be a second stove to a MSR Dragonfly, so for car camping use, the Dragonfly will serve as a main stove, and is also stable enough to handle large cookware. My only other concern about the Camp-5 is that it has a very concentrated flame, so it may not simmer well, but again I have the Dragonfly for that.
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby corvus » Thu 12 Jan, 2012 11:11 pm

G'day gmrza,
When you receive your Camp 5 and have tested it can you please post a bit of a review as has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum it looks a wee bit on the flimsy side and appears to have a flame thrower type burner head and will require a wind shield.
As a stove Tragic I am always looking at what is new and innovative on the market and the price is OK not to cause concern with Mrs corvus :)
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby hikin_jim » Fri 13 Jan, 2012 8:06 am

That stove stand looks good. I have a Brunton one that if it isn't exactly the same, it is very close. It does weigh about 140g though. Caveat emptor.

Others have mentioned that you will need some way to send heat to the fuel (a preheat mechanism) if you want to turn the canister upside down. Let me illustrate with a couple of photographs.

Normal operation on a gas stove without any preheat mechanism.
Image

Now, turn the canister upside down.
Image
Oh, by the way, that photo was taken after the flames had stabilized a bit. The first rush of flame extended out about 30cm. Quite dramatic. :lol: Might I suggest that this is not a good idea.

If either you or Mr. Stibb are handy with such things, you could rig something up. Careful though. You don't want to attach to anything that might melt, particularly if the item that might melt has gas flowing through it. :shock:

EDIT: Actually, on further reflection, what I'm saying above isn't strongly worded enough. The photo speaks to what could happen if you get it wrong with gas, but it could also be worse, much worse. You really need to know what you're doing with gas if you want to rig up something to apply heat to a combustible and possibly explosive gas. Not something to be taken lightly. Far safer I think to just buy the proper gear. Certainly less costly than a stay in hospital. If you get to a hospital if you understand my meaning. It really could go that badly. Think twice.

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Last edited by hikin_jim on Sun 15 Jan, 2012 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby gmrza » Fri 13 Jan, 2012 10:34 am

corvus wrote:G'day gmrza,
When you receive your Camp 5 and have tested it can you please post a bit of a review as has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum it looks a wee bit on the flimsy side and appears to have a flame thrower type burner head and will require a wind shield.
As a stove Tragic I am always looking at what is new and innovative on the market and the price is OK not to cause concern with Mrs corvus :)
corvus


I'll be happy to do that. One of the things I also want to test is how well it works with the adapter from Kovea to connect those cheap butane "aerosol" cans. - If that works out, that will provide me with the cheapest source of fuel for warm weather use - I picked up 4 cans of butane at Bunnings for $4.65. They also land up being "dual use" because I use them for filling my gas soldering iron.

I have to admit I agree with your concerns. I decided, however, to throw caution to the wind in this instance, partly because any heavy-duty use can be satisfied by my Dragonfly. I am also very careful with my gear.
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby flyinglion2000 » Fri 13 Jan, 2012 12:45 pm

Hi all

I recently bought a Kovea "Cobra" - a stove stand that takes the butane long cans (gmrza is that what you have as mentioned in your last post?)

I have tested it at home - so far so good. The connection to the long can is solid and does not feel loose or liable to disengage at any knock or movement like I have had with another long can adaptor. Also the two legs on this end of the adaptor do a good kob of keeping the long can steady and it won't try to roll away.

The stove base also seems very stable as well. The hose length is reasonbly longt too.

I have hooked it up to my Kovea Observer lantern and it worked a treat. I have also hooked it up to my MSR Reactor. At first the Reactor didn't work. On very close inspection using a 10X magnifier I found out that the outside diameter of the Reactor's fuel pin/needle was just too big to fit all the way into the threaded valve assembly of the Kovea Cobra with the result that the lindal valve did not get opened by the Reactor so no gas would flow.

I remedied this by taking a drill bit a fraction bigger than the Cobras' valve hole and - by hand not by mechanical drill - effctively increased its size to allow the Reactor to fully screw onto the adpator. It now works perfectly.

My only criticism of the Cobra is that it heavy; definitely not ultralight. Also the sack it comes in is incredibly smelly!!!

My concern with teh Kovea Cobra is whether I will get a liquid fuel feed through to whatever I have hooked up to it - especially in cold whether. In Brisbane at the moment the ambient temperature is quite hot so I am thinking the fuel in the long can is well on it way to vapourisation so no issues (??) but in cold weather I am not so sure. Pictures like HJ posted make me wonder. The Kovea Cobra doesn't appear to have any preheat mechanism that I can determine (I am not an expert!). The MSR eactor is such that there is very little heat radiated downwards underneath the stove (I can place my fingers beneath it quite no worries). You would expect this from a direct coupled gas canister stove I suppose.

Am I courting a liquid fuel feed fire danger here????

safe stoving!
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby gmrza » Fri 13 Jan, 2012 4:18 pm

flyinglion2000 wrote:Hi all

I recently bought a Kovea "Cobra" - a stove stand that takes the butane long cans (gmrza is that what you have as mentioned in your last post?)


The adapter I have ordered is the TKA-9504:

Image

This adapter is only really going to be useful for a remote canister stove, since a long butane can is not going to be stable enough to act as a stove base.
There does appear to be a safety concern with this adapter, that you have to attach it to the stove first. I am guessing that if you attach it to the can first, you will have a can spewing gas - not good. This piece of equipment is therefor not idiot-proof.
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby rucksack » Fri 13 Jan, 2012 5:33 pm

The Kovea KA-0103 Cobra Gas Adapter is a remote adapter for LPG gas stoves. At one end, it has a three-legged stove base with a male Lindal valve in the centre. At the other end, it has a female butane cartridge gas connection. Basically, you screw a canister gas stove with its female Lindal valve onto the male Lindal valve of the Cobra stove base, and at the other end, you attach the hose to the male bayonet of a butane cartridge. The only fuel regulator is on your gas stove. So, on and off (and everything in between) is still controlled by the regulator on your stove.

Although the Kovea KA-0103 Cobra Gas Adapter is available at some bricks and mortar stores and from on-line sellers, it no longer appears on the Kovea web site (more on this below).

The Fire Maple FMS-702 Gas Adaptor is also a remote adaptor, but there is a difference. (Note both spellings are correct.) Like the Kovea KA-0103 Cobra Gas Adapter, at one end the Fire Maple FMS-702 Gas Adaptor has a three-legged stove base with a male Lindal valve in the centre. In fact, if you look closely you might even think them identical, (more on that below too). At the other end of the hose is a female Lindal valve with a regulator.

So, the Kovea KA-0103 Cobra Gas Adapter connects a Lindal valve gas stove to a bayonet butane cartridge, whilst the Fire Maple FMS-702 Gas Adaptor connects the same stove to a ‘normal’ LPG gas canister.

Whilst both adaptors allow a LPG gas stove to ‘distance itself’ from its fuel source, the Kovea is also enabling the stove to run on cartridge gas, (well, in warmer weather anyway). The Fire Maple adaptor also includes a second regulator; that is, you have two regulator valves to deal with, one on the stove and one at the fuel supply.

Both Kovea (TKA-9504) and Fire Maple (FMS-701) sell a simple male Lindal valve / female bayonet cartridge adaptor. Note that this is not a remote arrangement; the stove screws onto one side of the small adaptor and the gas canister/cartridge screws onto the other side. Obviously, this is rather difficult with a screw top stove, (though I have seen it done on a beach with the cartridge buried in wet sand - I distanced myself.) These adaptors are listed on the respective web sites. If they also look quite similar, you should not be surprised. My guess is that they are both made by Fire Maple in Zhejiang Province in China.

Like the Kovea KA-0103 Cobra Gas Adapter, the Fire Maple FMS-702 Gas Adaptor is not listed on their web site. As they both look very similar to me, (and suspiciously similar at the male Lindal end), I called the Fire Maple factory this morning and spoke with them. This is what they told me: firstly, the FMS-702 Gas Adaptor is no longer in production and hasn’t been for the past 12 months; and secondly, they no longer have any stock of this adaptor - any stock being sold elsewhere is at least 12 months old. I then asked why they had discontinued production of their FMS-702. Silence. And then, more silence. That silence normally means one of two things up here: either there is/was a technical issue which caused the product to be discontinued, or there is a copyright issue which has progressed to the ‘legal stage’. As the Kovea KA-0103 Cobra Gas Adapter is no longer listed on the Kovea web site, I am assuming that they were coming out of the same factory. I would only be guessing as to the exact reason.

The person I spoke with at Fire Maple this morning said that their FMS-702 Adaptor, (the one with with a Lindal valves at either end), had been replaced by their non-remote FMS-701 Adaptor, which has a Lindal valve on one side and a bayonet connection on the other, and no hose in between, of course. A slightly implausible explanation one might think.

I would have to become a stove detective to take this any further, but if neither Fire Maple, nor Kovea (judging solely by the latter’s web site, as I have not spoken with them) are listing their ‘remote’ adaptors any more, I would be cautious. Both Fire Maple and Kovea are OEM’s, that is, Original Equipment Manufacturers, so they produce stoves for others, as well as releasing their own models. Given the problems with hoses and connections recently in these parts, (think the Optimus Nova and Nova+ as one example), it might be wise to be doubly cautious when using these remote adaptors. I am. And, if you are also thinking of jerry-rigging a heating exchange device onto your stove so as to be able to run inverted gas canisters with the addition one of these adaptors/adapters, I would be doubly cautious.

If one were to be thinking of using, say a FMS-702 with a bit of home-built heating ‘assistance’, and either a Kovea TKA-9504 or Fire Maple FMS-701 tacked on as well, (so as to access some cheaper cartridge gas fuel), I for one would definitely be moving my tent elsewhere.

It would be far safer, (not to mention much simpler), to be looking at buying a remote gas stove that already had a preheating tube as part of its design: one like the Chinese-made Fire Maple FMS-100 or FMS-100T, (I know Corvus has the 100T), or the made-in-Japan Snow Peak GS-300A, (which I use). There are others, of course. It might just be a little bit safer and a lot less trouble. And leave more time for walking.

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby hikin_jim » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 3:58 am

flyinglion2000 wrote:My concern with teh Kovea Cobra is whether I will get a liquid fuel feed through to whatever I have hooked up to it - especially in cold whether. In Brisbane at the moment the ambient temperature is quite hot so I am thinking the fuel in the long can is well on it way to vapourisation so no issues (??) but in cold weather I am not so sure. Pictures like HJ posted make me wonder. The Kovea Cobra doesn't appear to have any preheat mechanism that I can determine (I am not an expert!). The MSR eactor is such that there is very little heat radiated downwards underneath the stove (I can place my fingers beneath it quite no worries). You would expect this from a direct coupled gas canister stove I suppose.

Am I courting a liquid fuel feed fire danger here????
Quite possibly. Or possibly screwing up a very nice Reactor stove. I would not run a Reactor off of the cheap butane unless I were sure the gas were vaporized. The Reactor is quite expensive. To me at least, I wouldn't risk such a nice stove like the Reactor with the 100% butane canisters until I had established a reliable method of vaporizing the gas. On a simple stove, I'd be willing to experiment. On a pricey stove like the Reactor, I would not.

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby hikin_jim » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 4:11 am

gmrza wrote:This adapter is only really going to be useful for a remote canister stove, since a long butane can is not going to be stable enough to act as a stove base.
There does appear to be a safety concern with this adapter, that you have to attach it to the stove first. I am guessing that if you attach it to the can first, you will have a can spewing gas - not good. This piece of equipment is therefor not idiot-proof.
Yes. This is indeed true. I tried it. Not recommended.

There is another issue here. There is a vapor feed tube inside those 100% butane "long" cans. If the notch on the collar is up, the tube sucks vapor off the top, and all is well. If the can rolls at all, though, that tube can face down. This presents a bit of a problem as you are now feeding liquid butane into your stove.

In the photo I posted above, I was using a TKA-9504. I deliberately rolled the canister a cm or two to the right. WHOOMPH. A fireball ensued that extended at least 30cm, possibly more in the direction of the wind. Needless to say, this was somewhat "interesting." The adapter is a good product, but it really could have serious problems in side laying mode.

You will note that some of the cheapie adapters coming out of China have legs. In my opinion, the TKA-9504 needs to have such legs, which it does not, and therefore the TKA-9504 is not safe in side laying mode unless you have a means to prevent the canister from rolling. The product overall is a much better product than the cheapies coming out of China -- except for this one serious flaw. Caveat emptor.

I hope I'm not being alarmist, but I was experimenting (see above posted photo) in a controlled fashion, expecting a fireball or flare. I was still surprised how big the fireball was. Not something you want to have happen at the odd moment.

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby hikin_jim » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 4:24 am

Rucksack,

Thank you for a lot of good information. If you're not a stove detective already, you're very close.

That's very interesting that the remote set ups are being pulled by both Fire Maple and Kovea, two companies with reputations for producing good products. I look askance at anything else coming out of China.

rucksack wrote:If one were to be thinking of using, say a FMS-702 with a bit of home-built heating ‘assistance’, and either a Kovea TKA-9504 or Fire Maple FMS-701 tacked on as well, (so as to access some cheaper cartridge gas fuel), I for one would definitely be moving my tent elsewhere.
Likewise. Applying heat to a combustible, potentially explosive gas shouldn't be taken lightly.

I've got a Brunton Stove Stand which for all the world appears to be made by Fire Maple. I've had no problems. However, with the ability to remote a stove comes the ability to really do some damage. If someone tried to invert a canister without knowing what they're doing, they could wind up in a very bad way. I wonder if they were discontinued for simple product liability issues? Yes, I realize it's pretty hard for someone in Europe, America, Australia, etc. to press a product liability suit against a Korean and especially a Chinese firm. Still, a company with a good reputation may want to protect that reputation. What if photos like the one I posted above were circulated along with photos of horribly disfigured burn victims or the like? Perhaps the issue isn't purely technical but is more along the lines of "this thing has the potential to get us in trouble, let's stop selling it"

This is sheer speculation on my part.

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby Stibb » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 10:10 am

Thanks for all the info. I really have no experience with gas stoves and have no clue about their inner workings or terminology. I will take the advice and get something that is made for remote/upside down canisters (if I need that). 100T looks to be it (it does have the pre-heat thing doesn't it? So it would be safe with upside down canister??)

Corvus: you have mentioned in another thread that you landed the 116T for $25. Can I ask where you got it from. At that price it's hard not to buy anyway (until I saved up for the 100T)!
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby corvus » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 10:24 am

G'day Stibb,
I was lucky enough to get the116T at that price through Dino Direct however they are a bit more expensive now.
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby Stibb » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 11:59 am

Thanks corvus. I'll just save up for the 100T then. I blame you for even wanting it :wink:
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby flyinglion2000 » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 2:16 pm

Hi Jim & Rucksack, I appreciate your comments above about the cosnequences of a liquid fuel feed from an inverted or wrongly positioned canisters and the potential reasons they may no longer are being made. I love my Reactor and would hate to see it go up in flames literally. So I think i might refrain from guinea pigging it with the remote adaptor until I am sure I have this thing nutted.

Hikin Jim wrote

"There is a vapor feed tube inside those 100% butane "long" cans. If the notch on the collar is up, the tube sucks vapor off the top, and all is well."


Jim I tried searching for a diagram or image of this feed tube so I can undertand it better. I googled quite a bit but to no avail. Do you have an image you can put up here? Where specifically is the "top". I am trying to determine if this feed tube is designed with the can operating in the horizontal position or in the vertical position. I would assume horizontal as that is a prevalent position of use for these types of cans (ie all those portable gas camping stoves that go for about $20+) at least here in Australia.

I played around with the Kovea Cobra and interestingly, the connection on the long can end is such that when its two legs are spread the notch in the collar of the long can is always uppermost (assuming a level surface). So presumably the boys at Kovea designed it that way with this situation in mind; that is when the can is horizontal with its nocth up the feed tube sucks gas not liquid.

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby rucksack » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 4:02 pm

You might be right with your speculation, Jim. I know that some Chinese stoves have had a hard time in the EU, principally on safety issues. The brands vary, of course, but they are all OEM construction. My view about Kovea and Fire Maple is that both are quite reputable and both make some decent stoves. But outside of those two OEM's, I am wary. And flyinglion2000, you are right about a Kovea KA-0103 Cobra Gas Adapter. I had one in my hands yesterday and those two small legs, which hold the cartridge horizontal, with a particular orientation, do exactly as you say. Although it is not relevant here, those gas cartridges (as against gas canisters) are not always used in a horizontal fashion. There are stoves that use the cartridge as the third leg in a tripod arrangement, so the cartridge is angled up at 45º from the horizontal and becomes the third support leg of the stove. These are cartridge-only stoves though, (i.e. don't use canisters), so don't raise the matters that we have been discussing.

There are a couple of other issues too. One, is that whilst a stove design may go in the front door of one OEM, the finished product may come out of front door of another. That is, OEM's sub-contract amongst each other, sometimes on an ad hoc basis and sometimes on an ongoing basis. It is one reason to stick with the more reliable ones, (if you know who they are, of course). Optimus really came unstuck last year with their Nova and Nova+ stoves, which they had outsourced to a manufacturer in China - I still don't know which one, but they have apparently moved to another OEM since. They had to recall all those stoves. One of their distributors over here told me that the venerable Optimus SVEA 123R is now manufactured in Taiwan. It is just one example.

The other issue is the canisters & cartridges themselves. They are not all alike, in that they can vary as to the gas mixtures they contain. One example will suffice. Let's take Kovea, as we have been discussing their gas adaptor; they sell three gas canisters and one gas cartridge and no two are alike in their gas mixtures. Their 110g canister is a 85% isobutane & 15% propane mixture; their 230g canister is a 70% isobutane and 30% propane mixture; their 450g canister - their largest - is a 80% butane and 20% propane mixture; and finally, their 220g cartridge comprises 82% butane and 18% propane. These mixtures can (and do) alter the performance of your stove, especially in the cold, or at altitude. The singular problem is that not all canisters or cartridges are clearly marked with these percentages, so really you are just flying blind on one more level. Add a couple of questionable connections and hoses and, well ... it is more than a simple caveat emptor situation.

MSR and Optimus gas canisters, both of which (I think) are made in South Korea, do specify the mixtures that they contain. I do not know if Primus canisters do - that information is not on their web site and I don't have one of their canisters here in front of me, to check. Snow Peak gas canisters are made in Japan, and do specify their contents, at least on their web site. It is interesting to observe that no two of these manufacturers (Kovea, MSR. Optimus, Primus, or Snow Peak) are alike in the make-up of their gas canisters, either in terms of the gases they contain, or the percentages of the mixtures. And in Kovea's case, there are even differences within their own range of canisters and cartridge - different gases and different mixtures.

We sail on ... bravely, I think.

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby rucksack » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 4:41 pm

These are the gas blends that I am aware of, in the various canisters (and in the Kovea cartridge) ...

KOVEA
110g 85% isobutane 15% propane
230g 70% isobutane 30% propane
450g 80% butane 20% propane
220g* 82% butane 18% propane
*cartridge

MSR
113g 80% isobutane 20% propane
227g 80% isobutane 20% propane

OPTIMUS
110g 25% isobutane 50% butane 25% propane
230g 25% isobutane 50% butane 25% propane
450g 25% isobutane 50% butane 25% propane

PRIMUS
110g The Primus web site simply says: propane/isobutane/butane blend
225g
450g

SNOW PEAK
110g 85% isobutane 15% propane
250g 85% isobutane 15% propane
450g 85% isobutane 15% propane

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby rucksack » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 5:09 pm

And a few more, all sourced in South Korea ...

BULIN
230g no information as to their gas canister blend(s) on their website
220g*
*cartridge

FIRE MAPLE
110g cartridges simply say: premum blend fuel isobutane
230g
450g

MAXSUN
110g canisters & cartridge simply say: premium isobutane propane mixture
230g
450g
220g*
*cartridge

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby gmrza » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 6:48 pm

rucksack wrote:These are the gas blends that I am aware of, in the various canisters (and in the Kovea cartridge) ...

PRIMUS
110g The Primus web site simply says: propane/isobutane/butane blend
225g
450g

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According to the 230g Primus canister I have in front of me, it contains "44% N-Butane, 29% ISO-Butane, 27% Propane".
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby rucksack » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 8:34 pm

Thanks gmrza. N-Butane is just another name for Butane, so that means the 230g Primus gas canister is: 29% isobutane, 44% butane, and 27% propane. That makes its blend somewhat similar to the Optimus canisters (25%, 50%, & 25% respectively). There seems to be quite a bit of variation out there in these gas canister blends - at least for the ones that you can find information on. There are a lot of canister 'brands' too, or at least a lot of companies selling gas canisters under their own brands, although a very large proportion of these are manufactured in South Korea, including most of those sold under the various Chinese brands. China doesn't produce everything - well, not yet anyway!

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby rucksack » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 8:47 pm

A recent thread traversed some of this terrain ...

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3606&p=108718&hilit=roger+caffin#p108718

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby Tony » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 8:49 pm

KOVEA
110g 85% isobutane 15% propane
230g 70% isobutane 30% propane
450g 80% butane 20% propane
220g* 82% butane 18% propane


Hi Rucksack,

The Kovea 450g canisters that we get here are 75% Iso-Butane 25% Propane.

Tony

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby corvus » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 8:53 pm

G'day Rucksack,
Top information as usual :) cannot understand why there are so many mixtures especially when all of the 230g canisters I can purchase are made in Korea (possibly in the same Factory ?)our Kovea ones are now branded Elemental which is the "brand" name for the Australian importer of Kovea Gear.
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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby rucksack » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 9:24 pm

Tony, yes I have used that 75% butane 25% propane Kovea blend myself, so Kovea obviously has a few blends kicking around. For those brands who don't carry the information somewhere on the canister itself and who also don't put any information on their web site, it's a bit of pot luck, isn't it? Kovea does put out an 80%-20% blend, and I suspect that Kovea is the source of quite a lot of the gas canisters that we see in this region. Both Fire Maple and Bulin put out canisters under their own brand, and those canisters definitely come from South Korea, so that leaves the buyer guessing as to the blend inside. As far as I can see, the gas cartridges are even worse, in terms of information. Just a question though Tony .. how much real difference do you think these varying blends have on a stove's performance? And, what blend do you use when you are doing your tests? Corvus, yes I saw those Elemental branded canisters last trip and you would think that they would all be roughly similar, given that they are probably being sourced from the same factory (or group of factories), but clearly - if the manufacturers and re-sellers are to be belived - they aren't.

I am off to Hong Kong on Tuesday for a three day walk along the Maclehose Trail. As I have to pick up a gas canister, for cooking, I will have a very quick look at the canister brands being sold in a couple of HK stores and see what they say. It may be that some jurisdictions have more stringent requirements (as to stating the contents) than others do. The Optimus web site provided the most information that I came across yesterday on-line; they even have a downloadable pdf for their gas canisters. Others have no information whatsoever.

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby rucksack » Sun 15 Jan, 2012 10:52 pm

Tony, check this link .. it's the Kovea NZ distributor. Here are the Kovea blends for the 3 gas canisters and the single gas cartridge that they sell in NZ.

http://www.kovea.co.nz/products.cfm?pag ... &cat_id=17

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby Tony » Mon 16 Jan, 2012 8:11 am

Hi Rucksack,

Thanks for the link to the NZ Kovea site, this has made me even more confused, if you look at the 230g page it claims the 230g canister has a mix of 70% isobutane/30% Propane but if you have close look at the photo of the canister it clearly has 80% isobutane/20% Propane mix on it, then if you have a close look at the 450g canister photo I think I can read 75% isobutane/25% Propane though they claim 80% isobutane/20% Propane.

I was in NZ last November and we used Kovea 230g canisters and from memory I think the canisters had 70% isobutane/30% Propane on them. BTW NZ$6-10 in the shops in Queenstown.

Here in Australia the old green Kovea 230g canister had 70% isobutane/30% Propane written in them, then when the canister changed to white there is no mention of mix ratio's, we all presumed that it was the same but I have always had my doubts, now the Kovea canisters are branded as Elemental, (same importer as before GMA (Grant Minervini Agencies)) it is mentioned on the Elemental site that the 230g mix is 75% isobutane/25% Propane mix. Recommended retail A$8.45 (many shops in the Canberra region want a lot more).

Just a question though Tony .. how much real difference do you think these varying blends have on a stove's performance?
in warm temperatures and down to 5-10C range not much but around 0C that is when Iso-Butane/Propane mix is better, in winter I use a liquid feed gas stove where it is the Propane that does the work of pushing the liquid gas out of the canister, in that case it matters little whether it is Iso-Butane/Propane or Butane/Propane mix, I have use 25% propane mixes quite successfully in the snow.

what blend do you use when you are doing your tests
I have been using the Kovea 75% isobutane/25% Propane mix, but as the Kovea gas is getting expensive I will be using straight Butane from now on.

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby rucksack » Mon 16 Jan, 2012 12:11 pm

Thanks Tony. I noticed that discrepancy on the NZ web site too. I think there are questions about the content of the Kovea gas canisters. If you look at the printing on Kovea canisters, they have always looked to me as if they have been printed twice, with the details of the blend differing from the general label print. That has always seemed to be the case with their canisters. Perhaps, they are filling with different blends for different markets, so we might just remain slightly sceptical as to their blend claims. And, not only Kovea, I suspect. It would be interesting to see a gas analysis of all the canister (and cartridge) brands on sale in Australia, and then a correlation between their blends and their prices in the stores.

As you say, it probably doesn't matter all that much until the temperature dips below 0ºC. As regards costs, I went on a four week walk in Tasmania last October-November - 3 continuous weeks down the south west (Western Arthur Range and White Monolith Range) followed by a week on the Tasman Peninsula - 28 nights in total. I used my old SVEA 123R, just for sentimental reasons, so I was burning Shellite. The cost? $11.60 for 4 weeks (41 cents a day). I was cooking three times a day on average, because I had some fairly interesting weather and was tent bound more than once. As the cost of those gas canisters goes up, the cost of some liquid fuels, (especially for longer trips), starts to look quite 'attractive'.

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Re: Fire Maple gas canister adapter

Postby Tony » Mon 16 Jan, 2012 8:38 pm

Hi Rucksack,

It is possible to check canister gas mixes by measuring pressure vs temperature, Roger Caffins FAQ site has some very good PT charts, I have been thinking about making my own mixes when I refill.

Yes canister gas is not the cheapest option but it is the most convenient and easest to use, and to me an extra few dollars for the convenience of gas is worth it.

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