Rain Jackets

[Nuts]

Sounds a bit silly, but yes that would work I guess.
The more I read of the new fabric I actually did wonder why it wasnt just used in panels on a more robust jacket (goretex etc.), the strength and durability in the current designs seem to be the only concerns aired on other sites.... right?
Anyhow... I am actually interested in hearing more about the new macpac offerings, the features of the new jackets and the new fabric (any other details besides 'breathability'?) Not just the positives, not that it 'blows other fabrics away'. (and keeping in in mind that the last people to believe are those that have just finished pushing goretex to us).
(probably still within the topic?)
Perhaps, franco, you have something useful to contribute?
Perhaps I should just buy one...

[Franco]

Nuts
My Montane jacket does have Cordura nylon panels (it is nearly 500g) in the right places but still seems to me to keep me dryer than the Gore Tex versions I have (x 2).
A few days after I received it (from the UK, it was not out here) I was in my backyard fiddling with a tent when a storm moved in. Within seconds we had "tropical " rain, thick drops and it was bucketing down. So I ran upstairs to get the jacket, wore that on top of my wet T shirt and walked around the neighborhood. When I arrived back about 40 min later my T shirt was dry, and so was my skin. I was very impressed. I only use it when I expect a lot of rain or it is cold as I can layer under it. Mostly I use a lighter (just over 200g) and much more compressible Montane smock ( H2O ?) now discontinued.
Franco

[blacksheep]

Nuts
Some have reported less wind protection with eVent than with the other stuff ( not sure if this applies to all versions) however possibly only wearing a jacket that is made half with eVent and the other half with the Tex stuff could give the definitive answer ( you will need to walk back and fro to expose the two sides )
Maybe that is what you want so that then we will all know. I suggest totally different colours to facilitate identification.
Franco

A bit of info about windproofness (this is acut and paste from a few sources that I have kept, but I've failed to keep a record of where exacltly, but would include patagonia/malden mills/entrant/schoeller/BPL, the bulk first appeared on backpacking light)

...Cubic feet per minute per square meter (CFM) is a measure of the wind resistance or air permeability of a fabric. The higher the CFM, the greater the volume of air passing through.

In most "hardshell" cases, talk of a fabrics CFM rating never comes up. Traditional barriers like Gore, Triple Point, Entrant, and other respectable waterproof breathable technologies all have (essentially) a 0 CFM rating. They are absolutely windproof. eVent is up around 0 also.

With the advent of soft shells and more breathable fabrics, the air permeability argument becomes complicated -Traditional layering has always taught the "vapor barrier warmth" concept. That is, maintain a (windproof) stable dead air space next to skin and you will stay warmer. That's true, if you're watching football game from the stands in winter.

But what happens when you're pounding uphill to the ridge before someone else sneaks into that untracked line of new powder? You can use a bit of convective heat loss; and you need more breathability to move the extra moisture you create through exertion.

And a fabric with 0 CFM doesn't provide it. We've found that fabrics that measure as much as 5 CFM are still functionally windproof: that is, you don't feel the breeze come through. And they afford much greater comfort on the uphill. So a 1-5 CFM is standard for good weather-protective soft shells .
Shells for higher exertion activities must be even more breathable. For these products we hold to a comfortably wind-resistant, but not windproof, standard of 10-15 CFM.

Beyond this, it is no longer really shellwear with any windproof merit. A fabric with a higher CFM (say, 15-20) shows though field tests that further gains in breathability don't offset the heat loss from wind penetration.
So the ability for a small amount of wind penetration is part of breathabilty-the way to block it is pour PU rubber over the fabric (thats in reference to both wind and breathability)

We have made a jacket that is 50/50 event and Gore XCR...no tester commented on windproof or water proof differences, only on how dry the Event side was on the inside after use...I'll try and find some pics maybe?

[blacksheep]

The more I read of the new fabric I actually did wonder why it wasnt just used in panels on a more robust jacket (goretex etc.), the strength and durability in the current designs seem to be the only concerns aired on other sites.... right? .

just to clarify- strength and robustness is determined by the substrate (fabric) that the laminate is bonded too. the yarn type/thread count and denier all play a role, the membrane (wheter it is supplied by Gore or eVent or entrant or porelle) is a passenger here, and not a factor. It is most likely that the earlier adopters of eVent are making "light and fast" style jackets- this is to be expected because this user group has probably got the most incentive to seek better performance. But in building these jackets the materials selected have light weight rather than durability high on the importance list...
Our Macpac range does have a lightweight jacket, but we built our resolution bushwalking jacket and our Prophet Mountain jacket and pants for our conditions here- and that meant passing over the 15-20d face fabrics and using 70d-200d as/where needed...these are garments made for how we use them down here (walking in, not around , wild places)

[NickD]

I use a Mountain Designs Meleleuca jacket. I've had it for nearly five years and I've used it pretty heavily. Its full length. It weighs about 900 grams but its well worth it for a jacket I know I can trust and abuse. It's not a Goretex but instead Repel Storm, which is just as waterproof - just not quite as breathable. I find it very satisfactory, and behind my backpack one of my best gear investments ever.

I also have a Mountain Designs Velo, which is a lightweight three layer goretex xcr, waist length. Whilst the comfort of the goretex is amazing, I find in really horrid conditions the water just pours straight onto my shorts, making me need to wear overpants more frequently. It's also no where near as robust, I took a small fall on the Western Arthurs and put a huge hole in the arm which cost $$ to get it fixed. I doubt that would have been the case in the Meleleuca.

My advice in Tassie remains the same as it has been for as long as I remember, buy full length for serious bushwalking. As a guide we always try and people to hire our long length jackets (Mont or MD's) and we often get a few short length faithfuls who thank us for the advice at the end of the trip.

[blacksheep]

I've been asked about photos of the new eVent- I'll post them here as I get them (but I realise it's a bit different to others posting pic as I have a commercial interest here...)
at this stage all that I can put up is the draft of our first ad for eVent (that will hits the magazines next edition...) if admin says all clear I'll post it, otherwise I'd best not.

[Son of a Beach]

I've been asked about photos of the new eVent- I'll post them here as I get them (but I realise it's a bit different to others posting pic as I have a commercial interest here...)
at this stage all that I can put up is the draft of our first ad for eVent (that will hits the magazines next edition...) if admin says all clear I'll post it, otherwise I'd best not.

Hi blacksheep... this is a hard one... people with a commercial interest are welcome (and encouraged) to answer questions about their products here, but not to promote their products beyond what people have asked. If the pictures have no other advertising info on them, that would be great to see them here. However, if they do include anything else that doesn't directly answer questions that have been posted in this topic, then it would be a breech of the rules.

I'm trying to walk the balancing act here, and it's difficult to know which side of the line it falls sometimes. If you're unsure, send them to me first. Otherwise, go ahead and post them, if you think they fit within these guidelines. Just keep in mind that if other members disagree about the commercial nature of them (or of any posts), and I get legitimate complaints, I'll have to remove them (I'm sure you'll understand - nothing personal, of course).

[corvus]

G'day SoaB,
I requested pics of the new Jackets as I thought it would help .
c

[blacksheep]

I'm trying to walk the balancing act here, and it's difficult to know which side of the line it falls sometimes. If you're unsure, send them to me first.

noted and done, cheers.

[Nuts]

As a guide we always try and people to hire our long length jackets (Mont or MD's) and we often get a few short length faithfuls who thank us for the advice at the end of the trip.

Perhaps cause they haven't had to fork out for the overpants also?

I (like most) always had long jackets (what else was there, in goretex). I always thought wearing shorts and gaiters a bit 'odd', just to get a patch of knee in the breeze. Many of the (vented) new quick dry pants seem to be a better option.

Recently (as the $ was good) I have been using (US designed), 'mullet' style jackets. Rearly get a wet rear end.....
Also, the weight of the (3 layer) jacket And overpants is less than my old MD goretex. Also find that, with fast paced up and downs, the closer cut and less fabric over the thighs is more comfortable...
.................


blacksheep, as the eVent is bonded to various layers, wouldn't it's performance be effected by those layers?
If so (and as (so far)I've only been able to find the 'fast n light style being sold), wouldn't this then alter the 'breathability' rating?
And if so- wouldn't this shed new light on the USDF test?
Wouldn't it be more useful to see what happens in such a test between your 'heavyweight' gore and event jackets, has this been done, do you have results?
Does the advantage of eVent decrease in making a proper 'bushwalking' jacket?
Am I off the mark or have you looked into this?
(Obviously paclite was more 'breathable' than the ordinary 3 layer goretex bonding)

[Nuts]

Nuts
My Montane jacket does have Cordura nylon panels (it is nearly 500g) in the right places but still seems to me to keep me dryer than the Gore Tex versions I have (x 2).
A few days after I received it (from the UK, it was not out here) I was in my backyard fiddling with a tent when a storm moved in. Within seconds we had "tropical " rain, thick drops and it was bucketing down. So I ran upstairs to get the jacket, wore that on top of my wet T shirt and walked around the neighborhood. When I arrived back about 40 min later my T shirt was dry, and so was my skin. I was very impressed. I only use it when I expect a lot of rain or it is cold as I can layer under it. Mostly I use a lighter (just over 200g) and much more compressible Montane smock ( H2O ?) now discontinued.
Franco

What I carn't grasp is that as soon as you start layering under a jacket, that will start to negate the jackets ability to 'breath'.
Wouldn't this mean that the jacket is (in real terms) only ''substantially, more breathable' 'up to a point'?
(No offence, if it works for you thats all that matters, but I just keep finding the same questions in the steep learning curve).
I can see the advantage of a more breathable short jacket in exactly the styles that are being offered now... and the pursuits blacksheep has mentioned.
I know this is a 'high tech', pedantic sort of topic to follow, and I guess if it works then there's the proof.
However, my concerns are with such as the words of one eVent reviewer I read last night- dont spend money on 'new tech' till it's 'old tech'.

[Son of a Beach]

blacksheep sent me the image below to check if it's OK to post. At first I said "no" because it really is too commercial for him to post. However, since it has been specifically requested by others in this topic, I've half-back-flipped* and decided to post it myself, instead (slightly scaled down). I have no current commercial connections, therefore it just sneaks in the rules if I post it in response to specific questions. I don't plan on making a habit of this sort of thing though.

* you try doing a half-back-flip while sitting at your desk!

[blacksheep]

blacksheep, as the eVent is bonded to various layers, wouldn't it's performance be effected by those layers?
If so (and as (so far)I've only been able to find the 'fast n light style being sold), wouldn't this then alter the 'breathability' rating?

Yes, in a small way. if the thread count is higher it will make the gaps smaller, but it is the same concept as fly wire vs. noseeum mesh in tents...one is more open, but the air still passes through freely...neither of them have thete pores block by a layer of PU rubber filling in the gaps.

And if so- wouldn't this shed new light on the USDF test?

the effect would be tiny ( a few %) not the differences shown on that test. I have no evidence, but I assume that a tester like the US Army would also elimate unwanted variables and test the same substrate that they have on their own fabrioc spec across all submissions anyway (if my experience with making/tendering for army equipment/apparel is anything to go by I'd say it was ceratinly the case)

Wouldn't it be more useful to see what happens in such a test between your 'heavyweight' gore and event jackets, has this been done, do you have results?
Does the advantage of eVent decrease in making a proper 'bushwalking' jacket?
Am I off the mark or have you looked into this?
(Obviously paclite was more 'breathable' than the ordinary 3 layer goretex bonding)

It is a sound thought process, but the clear differntiating factor is a layer of PU. The other factors have negligable effect, and would influence each test sample equally. The performace gain paclit has over 3 layer is simply that there is less glue in the fabric construction (substrate+coating+film vs. substrat+coating+fil+tricot mesh) The glue blocks the PU with covers the pores.

[corvus]

Thanks for posting the pic SoaB
c

[Nuts]

Nice looking jacket.

Wasn't going to but hey...

*What an odd add campaign! If that is indeed true, wasn't macpac also 'full of hot air' all the years they happily sold us the goretex product? This is what initially 'got my goat'

* Looks like it could be longer in the rear end?

* Those cuffs, are they laminated. They look good but I had a Marmot jacket with the same and they de-laminated after being put thru the drier (I guess why Marmot went back to velcro..)

* The 'pack pocket' zips. They are usually listed as water 'resistant', are yours waterproof? Someone here had the concern that they may 'break down' with constant exposure? (I have some OR paclite jackets with similar zips, so they obviously don't think so (or care what happens in years to come?)

Anyhow... any publicity is good publicity.

Good luck with the launch and thanks for your insight into eVent blacksheep.
I will most likely purchase one (some?) of your jackets when they are ready (so long as they are either available in orange or red ).

[blacksheep]

Nice looking jacket.

Wasn't going to but hey...

*What an odd add campaign! If that is indeed true, wasn't macpac also 'full of hot air' all the years they happily sold us the goretex product? This is what initially 'got my goat'

well, it was the best available for a long long time (mostly because they had a patent that prevented anyone else using PTFE....to still claim Gore is the best is hard to back up now though..

* Looks like it could be longer in the rear end?

* Those cuffs, are they laminated. They look good but I had a Marmot jacket with the same and they de-laminated after being put thru the drier (I guess why Marmot went back to velcro..)

* The 'pack pocket' zips. They are usually listed as water 'resistant', are yours waterproof? Someone here had the concern that they may 'break down' with constant exposure? (I have some OR paclite jackets with similar zips, so they obviously don't think so (or care what happens in years to come?)

this is our prophet jacket-it is quite short...walkers will go for the resolution..
cuffs are laminated, yes. we use Bemis adhesive from Canada, and ardmill gaskets that we get from Scotland. They don't come unstuck .
the chest pockets are a YKK water resistant (some call the waterproof zip). they are extremely good, but you'll not we still use a storm flap on the front zip...

Anyhow... any publicity is good publicity.

Good luck with the launch and thanks for your insight into eVent blacksheep.
I will most likely purchase one (some?) of your jackets when they are ready (so long as they are either available in orange or red ).

and thanks for the questions...

[Franco]

Nuts
I am no expert but still I find that often the difference between practice and theory is greater in practice than in theory.
"What I carn't grasp is that as soon as you start layering under a jacket, that will start to negate the jackets ability to 'breath'. "
I have mentioned already that it somehow amuses me to see even experienced hikers putting a rain jacket on top of the other layers as soon as it starts raining.
Mind you, I used to do that too.(but only for 40 years) However the point remains that even taking one layer off, Gore Tex ( I have Pac Lite and an older 3 layer version) does not seem to breathe as well as eVent.
BTW at 5c (minus wind chill) in Tassie I remained dry (apart for a bit at the back against the backpack) under my non "breathable Montane H2O because I only had a short sleeve Merino top underneath. If I had the eVent version I provably would have worn another layer and stopped more often.

Blacksheep
Good info on windproofness
It makes sense to me that with eVent the slightly lesser windproofness is more than made up by the higher breathability.

Long jacket vs tail
Long jacket users : wouldn't a good sized tail offer the same protection but add dexterity ?
(biased question because I use a "tail")
Franco

[Son of a Beach]

Long jacket vs tail
Long jacket users : wouldn't a good sized tail offer the same protection but add dexterity ?

I've not tried a mullet jacket, but I think I'd still prefer my long jacket. It's not tight at the bottom and has never caused any problems with movement or visibility for me. And it keeps the front of my shorts mostly dry. I still prefer to wear shorts when it's raining much of the time. I only use overpants if the rain is very heavy/persistent or if it is very cold.

[corvus]

I am in the long jacket and shorts brigade and unless I am in very cold conditions will only wear a thermal long sleeve (merino now) under the jacket and I also only use overpants in very adverse conditions so any new LW products that perform like my heavy Gortex will appeal to me.
c

[Son of a Beach]

blacksheep sent me the image below to check if it's OK to post. At first I said "no" because it really is too commercial for him to post. However, since it has been specifically requested by others in this topic, I've half-back-flipped* and decided to post it myself, instead (slightly scaled down). I have no current commercial connections, therefore it just sneaks in the rules if I post it in response to specific questions. I don't plan on making a habit of this sort of thing though.

Following up on this, blacksheep has sent me the attached image publishing the launch of MacPac's new eVent range. I'm posting this essentially in response to the many queries that have been raised about the product line in this topic, but if you think it's too commercial to belong here, just let me know. In any case, the Tasmanian launch is in Hobart on the 8th of March.

[loric]

Thanks for the info Blacksheep.

Shame that the release date is on the pub/hol long weekend - I (as well as pretty much everyone else who could potentially be interested in this stuff) will be out and about walking etc.

Can you confirm that the stores in Oz will have event stock immediately after the release date?
Will the Resolution be more robust that the current Aspiring/Reflex Taslan versions (and could you provide an approximate cost)?

My dilemma is that I'll be needing a new jacket for a trip end of March, so either I wait till the last minute to get an event jacket, or I buy one of the tried-and-true Hydronaut/Reflex/Goretex ones now...

Thanks!

[blacksheep]

Thanks for the info Blacksheep.

Shame that the release date is on the pub/hol long weekend - I (as well as pretty much everyone else who could potentially be interested in this stuff) will be out and about walking etc.

yes, i know it is unfortunate timing, but I had a small window when the Guys from the US were available-they are busy with US trade shows, so this is all I could swing

Can you confirm that the stores in Oz will have event stock immediately after the release date?
Will the Resolution be more robust that the current Aspiring/Reflex Taslan versions (and could you provide an approximate cost)?

RE: robust- the aspring jacket is a pretty tough jacket- the face fabric is 70x90D NY (145gms). The Resolution eVent uses a 70x155D NY (165gms) in key wear/abrasion areas , with a 135gm 40x40d in the body...so the answer is both yes and no in regards to robustness...re: stock-Some items will be instock straight away, some items will be 2 0r 3 days after the launch date. RRPs are Prophet (alpine)$599, Resolution(tramping)$549 and traverse (multisport)$399....as the fliers says, all attendees to the launch will get a voucher for a special offer (nope, not telling )

My dilemma is that I'll be needing a new jacket for a trip end of March, so either I wait till the last minute to get an event jacket, or I buy one of the tried-and-true Hydronaut/Reflex/Goretex ones now...

Thanks!

I can't answerr that one for you...but my dad used to tell me that good things come to those who choose to wait..
cheers

[loric]

Good thing come to those that wait!? Oh maan! I need to deliver some economic stimulus right now! LOL

Thanks for the info - i 'think' i'll be able to hold off for a little bit until the release.

[blacksheep]

in case you are planning on coming along, please ensure that you RSVP to the email address on the flyer ( [email protected] ) , that way you get into the draw to win a jacket...

[Clownfish]

So far, I've just been making do with a couple of $3 ponchos from Chickenfeed

[Adam]

So long as you don't live in SA, NT, WA you will be able to take part in the special offer.
Otherwise it may be best to purchase from a company that includes all of Australia as it's customers.

Adam Stapleton.

[corvus]

So far, I've just been making do with a couple of $3 ponchos from Chickenfeed

G'day Clownfish,
You is in Tassi now so get down and boogie to a real Rain Jacket or you is goin to freeze your arsenal and soak your things !!

In reality you will need a proper Rain Jacket if you intend to do the BW thing here so ditch the $3.00 ponchos for a $300.00++ rain jacket
c

[blacksheep]

So long as you don't live in SA, NT, WA you will be able to take part in the special offer.
Otherwise it may be best to purchase from a company that includes all of Australia as it's customers.

Adam Stapleton.

thanks Adam. Great first post.
macpac sells all across the world, but we do not have stores in those 3 states right now, correct. I'm not sure how that relates to customers where we do have a store, but I suppose you believe you have a point...

[corvus]

in case you are planning on coming along, please ensure that you RSVP to the email address on the flyer ( [email protected] ) , that way you get into the draw to win a jacket...

Sorry cannot help myself !! ba ,ba ,ba :lol and good luck to the winner just a pity us in Tas miss out
c

[blacksheep]

in case you are planning on coming along, please ensure that you RSVP to the email address on the flyer ( [email protected] ) , that way you get into the draw to win a jacket...

Sorry cannot help myself !! ba ,ba ,ba :lol and good luck to the winner just a pity us in Tas miss out
c

why? we are coming to Tassie