Another idiot giving bushwalkers a bad name...

[FatCanyoner]

its a pretty contentious issue if SAR were to start picking and choosing who they will rescue...

I'd never suggest that. I do think there should be some ramifications for people at the extreme end of the spectrum. If you drive like an idiot and crash your car, emergency services will rescue you, but the cops may well charge you with dangerous driving. It's the same think. Why should taxpayers fund this guy "finding himself"? Even if he didn't injure himself, his planned 40 day fast and complete lack of planning and resources meant it would have been inevitable that he would require rescuing at some point. Even his family basically admitted that. Given he has deliberately done something that any reasonable person could see would likely end in disaster, why not punish him to create a disincentive to the next nut job?

[matagi]

its a pretty contentious issue if SAR were to start picking and choosing who they will rescue...

I'd never suggest that. I do think there should be some ramifications for people at the extreme end of the spectrum. If you drive like an idiot and crash your car, emergency services will rescue you, but the cops may well charge you with dangerous driving. It's the same think. Why should taxpayers fund this guy "finding himself"? Even if he didn't injure himself, his planned 40 day fast and complete lack of planning and resources meant it would have been inevitable that he would require rescuing at some point. Even his family basically admitted that. Given he has deliberately done something that any reasonable person could see would likely end in disaster, why not punish him to create a disincentive to the next nut job?

Because it won't create a disincentive to a real nutjob? They just don't think and reason the same a way a more logical individual would.

[clarence]

dont assume everyone is playing with a full deck of cards....bear grylls has a lot to answer for....

+1.
The average person would put him in the same class as Robert Bogucki. Just tell channel 10 and they can send out a chopper and make a good story out of it.

[climberman]

I think people should have the right to go out and do stupid things and make mistakes in the wild.

I hope he's ok.

It does seem, ummm, silly though.

[Taurë-rana]

Never got lost for more than an hour.
A

You definitely haven't been trying hard enough!!!

Rescue services don't seem to mind rescuing people whatever the circumstances - it's their job and they usually enjoy it, that's why they are there. And it gives them good practice for if (heaven forbid), they ever need to rescue us.
I do think though that if the rescue was due to stupidity or lack of preparation, or just wanting a ride home, there should be a fine, but then who decides these things? It's like calling an ambulance - the ambulance drivers would rather be called and it not be an emergency than not be called and have someone end up in dire trouble because of it. But I suppose even they are getting more and more calls to things that an ambulance shouldn't even be thought of for. Lack of personal responsibility.

[ninjapuppet]

Jeremy and I were here just a month ago checking out that half a canoe. Must have washed up during the recent floods. If he had looked about 200 metres downstream, he would see the other half of the blue canoe.... FYI I took my 3 year old son down here for a Sunday stroll. At a slow pace, we walked back up to the top with no dramas. Confirmed a 3 year old could easily do this 7 km return trip.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

[colinm]

This was the Bob Turner track? It's a doddle. It's named for Bob Turner after he carried a *canoe* up it. That would be a challenge. I don't understand how anyone could get stranded on it.

[Earthling]

Whenever I read these articles I always wonder about the mental health of the person and feel there may be some mental health issues/disabilities that we are not aware of. Thankfully we don't keep everyone in a bubble, however, that means occasionally stories like this one will always appear and for me, that's ok, that's part of having the freedom to choose.

Last edited by Earthling on Thu 23 May, 2013 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[wayno]

when i was a kid , the dangers of the wild were drummed into me by various organisations in NZ,, the dangers of hypothermia and rivers and the need to plan and navigate... so i usually went into the outdoors massively over dressed... i remember being told where i was going could get down to minus twenty, so i was wearing three layers including three layers of long trousers.... it was more like about fifteen degrees and calm....

[colinm]

Whenever I read these articles I always wonder about the mental health of the person and feel there may be some mental health issues/disabilities that we are not aware of.

If true, it might explain the bushwalker who (he reports) ignored his 15 cries for help.

Thankfully we don't keep everyone in a bubble, however, that means occasionally stories like this one will always appear and for me, that's ok, that's part of having the freedom to choose.

I'll go along with that.

[jford]

Chris McCandless had no expectation that anyone would rescue him. He realised he'd stuffed up and prepared to die, but he had no expectation that anyone would come and dig him out. He was either a d*ckhead or an artist, depending on your background and point of view.

In some ways society has been much more tolerant of this sort of behaviour in the past. If it was three hundred years ago, this guy in NSW would probably have had a vision of Jesus somewhere on his short journey, and the location would now be a shrine to Saint So-and-So with a million pilgrims a year and souvenir shops to suit. Now he's branded a loony and bundled into hospital and written about in the newspaper. We have a much lower tolerance of certain aberrant behaviours now.

The fact that society has a duty to rescue people who do stupid things is not the fault of the stupid people, it's the fault of society.

J.

[north-north-west]

The fact that society has a duty to rescue people who do stupid things is not the fault of the stupid people, it's the fault of society.

Society does not 'have a duty' to rescue people who do stupid things. People just don't like the idea of letting other people die when they can be saved. And then some of them get a bit cheesed off when all that effort is expended on someone who needed it purely because of stupidity.

[Happy Pirate]

supertramp aka chris mccandless died because he didnt seek local knowledge or take a map.. he was trapped by a swollen river. there was a bridge across the river a few miles away he could have used had he had a map or done a bit of research about where he was going.

McCandless died because he was naive and his ideals were too great in proportion to his experience. We was so completely unprepared he didn't even factor spring floods into his understanding of Alaskan Wilderness.

He is the most amazing story of wild inspired free spirit and naive idiot in one amazing sad package.

RIP

Steve

[Happy Pirate]

Chris McCandless had no expectation that anyone would rescue him. He realised he'd stuffed up and prepared to die, but he had no expectation that anyone would come and dig him out. He was either a d*ckhead or an artist, depending on your background and point of view.

In some ways society has been much more tolerant of this sort of behaviour in the past. If it was three hundred years ago, this guy in NSW would probably have had a vision of Jesus somewhere on his short journey, and the location would now be a shrine to Saint So-and-So with a million pilgrims a year and souvenir shops to suit. Now he's branded a loony and bundled into hospital and written about in the newspaper. We have a much lower tolerance of certain aberrant behaviours now.

The fact that society has a duty to rescue people who do stupid things is not the fault of the stupid people, it's the fault of society.

J.

Yeah the truth is that there is something admirable and amazing in these guys. When I was 14 it was ALL I wanted to do to step out into the wilds and live off the land and shed the skin of social convention I'd been forced to wear. Unfortunately(?) I was not brave enough to embrace the complete and utter annihilation of self and safety and security that such a leap entails. I'm sure I'm a lesser person for my fear but I know I'm still alive.
The mention of Jesus is interesting because if the guy ever existed THIS is the best way to understand such a figure I think. He is the Chris McCandless who ventured into the wilderness wild and full of idealist yearning and a desire to be stripped of convention and yet survived and emerged purged with a message to pass on.
The rest is probably just the window dressing people add to prove their deity is better than the others.

But jford is right I think. We have created a society of safety that is thus a society of mediocrity. Extreme measures are responded to by prozac or rescue a little too often.
If Christ (or Chris or whoever) ventured out into the wilderness today he'd be helicoptered out against his will and then fed pharmacopeia til he stopped yearning for contact with the divine mysteries.
I want to think its the yearning that defines us, not the need for safety. Wilderness is the great God. It will draw us because it is Wild and Inhuman and speaks to us of something we yearn for because we are losing it.

I'm not saying we shouldn't mock idiots though; just that death by wilderness has maybe always been the great filter of fools from saints.

Steve (with a head full of mystery)

Last edited by Happy Pirate on Thu 23 May, 2013 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Happy Pirate]

The fact that society has a duty to rescue people who do stupid things is not the fault of the stupid people, it's the fault of society.

Society does not 'have a duty' to rescue people who do stupid things. People just don't like the idea of letting other people die when they can be saved. And then some of them get a bit cheesed off when all that effort is expended on someone who needed it purely because of stupidity.

There are times if I'm soloing when I won't tell anyone I'm even going but just leave an itinerary on my work desk instead so they'll find it if I've been missing for days. Sometimes you want loose time constraints more than placating the fears of others. Of course I'm single with no kids.
Social responsibility is something else again.
But social determinism OF responsibility is something ELSE again.
Steve

[wayno]

Chris McCandless had no expectation that anyone would rescue him. He realised he'd stuffed up and prepared to die, but he had no expectation that anyone would come and dig him out. He was either a d*ckhead or an artist, depending on your background and point of view.

In some ways society has been much more tolerant of this sort of behaviour in the past. If it was three hundred years ago, this guy in NSW would probably have had a vision of Jesus somewhere on his short journey, and the location would now be a shrine to Saint So-and-So with a million pilgrims a year and souvenir shops to suit. Now he's branded a loony and bundled into hospital and written about in the newspaper. We have a much lower tolerance of certain aberrant behaviours now.

The fact that society has a duty to rescue people who do stupid things is not the fault of the stupid people, it's the fault of society.

J.

religeous pilgrimages were so popular in the middle ages partly because it was literally the only way the unwashed masses could travel without emigrating,, it was one of the few ways to take a travelling holiday and you were more likely to have strangers take pity on you and feed or house you.... otherwise it was frowned apon in europe to go walkabout, you were likely to be be given a hostile reception by suspicious locals.

[Nuts]

youv'e been around a while then wayno? ; )

[wayno]

probably only the oldies will remember this quote from the movie The Highlander, from 1986,, (hell is it that long ago now)...

[Nuts]

Of course- Better to Burn Out than Fade Away... There can be only one highlander, iirc he wasn't a Kiwi.. lol

[wayno]

some great scottish scenery

[puredingo]

Steve, I don't think there is question that the man Jesus did exist the speculation is did he in fact turn water into wine, feed the masses, rise from the grave and biggest the mystery of all....was he for a short time an active member of the PeoplesFront of Judeah!?

As for Mccandles, I can only go off the movie and some reports I've read...seems like a selfish, spoilt brat to me. Reminds me of a converstaion i had with my dad when I was a young lad. "Dad, why wer'nt you a hippy during the 60's" he replied," I couldn't afford to be one".

[nq111]

Reminds me of a converstaion i had with my dad when I was a young lad. "Dad, why wer'nt you a hippy during the 60's" he replied," I couldn't afford to be one".

[jford]

Steve, I don't think there is question that the man Jesus did exist the speculation is did he in fact turn water into wine, feed the masses, rise from the grave and biggest the mystery of all....was he for a short time an active member of the PeoplesFront of Judeah!?

As for Mccandles, I can only go off the movie and some reports I've read...seems like a selfish, spoilt brat to me. Reminds me of a converstaion i had with my dad when I was a young lad. "Dad, why wer'nt you a hippy during the 60's" he replied," I couldn't afford to be one".

How many times to I have to tell you that he was a member of Judean People's Front, not the People's Front of Judea????.

Yes, McCandless, spoilt brat in some ways, seriously dysfunctional family as well. Being a hippy is a luxury, but then, so is being a bushwalker.

McCandless died because he was naive and his ideals were too great in proportion to his experience. We was so completely unprepared he didn't even factor spring floods into his understanding of Alaskan Wilderness.

He is the most amazing story of wild inspired free spirit and naive idiot in one amazing sad package.

True indeed. The reason the book and movie are fascinating is because it's in the one package. His aim wasn't to be fully prepared. He seemed to think being only partly prepared (a gun, a big bag of rice, some Tolstoy novels and not much else) was a way to get more in touch, or closer, to something. Whether NSW chap meant to do the same, who knows.

J.

[Happy Pirate]

Steve, I don't think there is question that the man Jesus did exist the speculation is did he in fact turn water into wine, feed the masses, rise from the grave and biggest the mystery of all....was he for a short time an active member of the PeoplesFront of Judeah!?

As for Mccandles, I can only go off the movie and some reports I've read...seems like a selfish, spoilt brat to me. Reminds me of a converstaion i had with my dad when I was a young lad. "Dad, why wer'nt you a hippy during the 60's" he replied," I couldn't afford to be one".

Actually there is some serious(?) theological dispute over the actual existence of Christ. I have little time for the rest of the mythos except as an analysis of human belief systems and spirituality (as opposed to religion).


The point about McCandles is that he DID what some of us dream of doing but are too scared to (and just replicate as a pale shadow through solo hiking or hitchhiking) and many don't even consider. Not so much in Alaska where I think he failed badly and stupidly but before that in the more urbanised framework of the U.S.
Basically he stepped out of the accepted social framework and redefined it to suit himself. He abandoned everything and let the world he encountered redefine him (rather than the other way around as most of us do). He didn't completely succeed and eventually he completely failed but I admire him for trying because I too once riled against the gulf between human conformity and genuine living but was too scared to take the leap. As most of us are.
The point about where he intersects with spirituality is that every prophet in history is depicted as stepping out of the world to confront a greater truth that cannot be faced within a social-human paradigm and this single first step is a massive one that most of us will never take (except just once, forcibly, right at the end). It is the voluntary annihilation of the 'self'.

This is definitely NOT the same as the hippy framework where people were jumping from one predefined paradigm into another and supported each other in the transition (I guess the first person blazed a new trail) . And seriously; most 'hippies' weren't challenging themselves or anything else; they were just 'wearing the T-Shirt'.

Many of the stories of religious prophets (which McCandels was NOT and shouldn't be treated as) talk of venturing out into the world with nothing and relying on chance/charity/divine grace (should probably add pity too) to save them. And then venturing into the wilderness with nothing and risking their life to achieve revelation.
McCandels successfully ventured into the world with nothing and survived and in that initial, terrible leap I admire him utterly. In his subsequent naive and badly under-prepared journey to Alaska I think he was a fool.

I too only base my ideas on a single book so really, what do I know? (and I'm sorry that this is becoming a wine-fueled rant, but some ideas are never expressed otherwise)
I've always been both tempted and fascinated by the idea of "stepping off of the world". That with a single brave step you could walk away from the world you know. Not just physically away but completely: culturally, emotionally, intellectually, mentally.

And this is the main thing; that any serious bushwalker who reflects on their relationship with nature KNOWS that they live within a contrived relationship with nature; treating 'the bush' as merely a recreational/ecological pursuit that leaves us distant and separate from nature (not feeding directly from it or affecting it or even really living in it, except as a guest). And that most in our western 'civilisation' are even more distant than us.

If you've got this far, thanks for indulging me. Some of my thinks are thunks that thankfully have thisszlled!

Steve

[walkinTas]

Actually there is some serious(?) theological dispute over the actual existence of Christ.

Even wikipedia disagrees with wikipedia. It's not surprising though that some would make that claim. There are conspiracy theories for everything. There are even people who don't believe in the moon landing or in the 911 attack.

Last edited by walkinTas on Sat 25 May, 2013 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Actually there is some serious(?) theological dispute over the actual existence of Christ
Steve

Nooooo who'd have thunk it

[wayno]

"The point about McCandles is that he DID what some of us dream of doing but are too scared to"

i doubt that , i certainly dont think about doing what he did. he was playing russian roulette.
I plan my trips and euip properly for them, i've no interest in having an exercise in misery, excessive danger and stress and risk my life...

[matagi]

"The point about McCandles is that he DID what some of us dream of doing but are too scared to"

i doubt that , i certainly dont think about doing what he did. he was playing russian roulette.
I plan my trips and euip properly for them, i've no interest in having an exercise in misery, excessive danger and stress and risk my life...

You may not, but clearly the thought has floated across Happy Pirate's consciousness and I must say, I have thought about what it would be like do something similar - although I never will, as I am too wedded to my modern day creature comforts.

So are the ultralight brigade an evolutionary step along this pathway? Could some (any) of them take the step from minimising weight to minimising everything?

[ILUVSWTAS]

So are the ultralight brigade an evolutionary step along this pathway? Could some (any) of them take the step from minimising weight to minimising everything?

I can think of a name or 2 i'd like to volunteer the attempt......

[wayno]

the ultralight brigade sometimes sail too close to the wind as it is. often if the weather gets bad they dont have enough clothes to keep walking, they have to pitch camp and wait it out in their shelter. i read one account of an ultralighter caught in an unseasonal snow storm, and he admitted he was going to die of the cold until the storm stopped and the sun came out. he believes there was devine intervention because he is deeply religeious so he still takes the same minimal gear with him on his long walks and preaches his religeon along the way to crowds.....
ultra lighters tend to put up with less gear and being more cold than better eqiupped hikers and they put up with more discomfort camping..
i wouldnt go ultralight in the places that some ultralighters are often going to with their minimal gear..... i'm not interested in pushing the boundaries of my comfort that much, i've done it in the past enough accidentally to think otherwise.