Overseas waiting lists, Poor business practise.

[Davidf61]

I've been looking hard at some new shelters in either cuben or silnylon, pyramid style or largish tarp.

So what's with the horrendous waiting lists to get stuff made/sent? Do they not want our money?
Now I understand they are "cottage" industry, but still, 12 to 14 weeks to supply a product does not
seem to be good business sense. Now, if your making tarps or tents, I'll take a punt and say seamstress
skills would be required. Is it so hard to get in part time or casual staff to speed it up or catch up with
backlog?

Any web surfing will reveal no end of people who've said " Yeah, I'd buy it but I ain't waiting 3 or 4 months".
Me included.

So, I bought a cheap sewing machine, took some lessons from Mum [ not that hard actually ] and I'm
going to try a few things myself.

Rant over.....

[KANANGRABOYD]

Dave,
I "hear" you mate!, but......
this is a common occurrance with cottage makers - and unless you are wasting money on that crappy, overpriced "ultra" Cuben from Terra Nova - you are gonna have to wait.
Recently Joe ( Valasko) from Z-Packs coped some "abuse" on BPL - go and read the replies etc.
Remember US is 300 million people.
I've waited that long for Cuben stuff - you need to accept that just because you have the money and time, that doesn't mean 100 people are behind you.
If you want crap from the local mass chain suppliers, then go to them tomorrow, but otherwise be "patient" my friend - all good things come to those that wait.
Or - go on Fleabay and buy an industrial sewing machine and then but the cuben et al yourself, and make it yourself.
I've been EXACTLY where you have been mate.
Good rant - I just spent the last 40 mins on the phone to my wife ( who is up in the High Arctic- Canada) and ranted to her, so 1 rant per night is all I have
Rant over........ ( and out! ) ....LOL

[Strider]

Or - go on Fleabay and buy an industrial sewing machine and then but the cuben et al yourself, and make it yourself.

Aren't Cuben shelters taped?

[KANANGRABOYD]

Or - go on Fleabay and buy an industrial sewing machine and then but the cuben et al yourself, and make it yourself.

Aren't Cuben shelters taped?

Yes some are - but you can buy the tape and do it yourself - there are a few suppliers of it. It is all binded and not heat sealed like what ePTFE is and the like such as what people like Remote or Venus offers. Sealing Cuben is very simple.

[Mark F]

It obviously isn't poor business practice as the businesses you complain about are still here and appear to be doing well. I am yet to see 12-16 week delays - more like 2 to 6 for most of the year. We may not have "instant gratification" when dealing with the likes of Zpacks and MLD but they choose to maintain a permanent workforce and not hire in to meet seasonal demand - the benefit to us as consumers is more consistent and higher quality. As KB points out you can MYOG - making seam tape for cuben isn't rocket science.

I won't bore you with the benefits (to them) of their business model (produce to order and sell direct) but they are considerable for small cash strapped businesses. For me I will wait and be thankful that they are successful and continue to manufacture good products using cutting edge fabrics at prices that are largely affordable. Consider the cost of cuben Terra Nova gear where Terra Nova follow a mainstream business model of produce/stock/sell through retailers.

[Davidf61]

It obviously isn't poor business practice as the businesses you complain about are still here and appear to be doing well. I am yet to see 12-16 week delays - more like 2 to 6 for most of the year. We may not have "instant gratification" when dealing with the likes of Zpacks and MLD but they choose to maintain a permanent workforce and not hire in to meet seasonal demand - the benefit to us as consumers is more consistent and higher quality. As KB points out you can MYOG - making seam tape for cuben isn't rocket science.

I won't bore you with the benefits (to them) of their business model (produce to order and sell direct) but they are considerable for small cash strapped businesses. For me I will wait and be thankful that they are successful and continue to manufacture good products using cutting edge fabrics at prices that are largely affordable. Consider the cost of cuben Terra Nova gear where Terra Nova follow a mainstream business model of produce/stock/sell through retailers.

All good points, but if you have a waiting list measure in weeks/months, on a long term basis, that implies a healthy turnover, you should be able to increase staff levels, slightly, to lower wait times to a more reasonable level. Which in turn will lead to more sales! It doesn't matter what I'm buying [ any goods or service, here or o/seas ] I don't expect instant gratification, but a reasonable supply time, yes.

[Scottyk]

I've been looking hard at some new shelters in either cuben or silnylon, pyramid style or largish tarp.

So what's with the horrendous waiting lists to get stuff made/sent? Do they not want our money?
Now I understand they are "cottage" industry, but still, 12 to 14 weeks to supply a product does not
seem to be good business sense. Now, if your making tarps or tents, I'll take a punt and say seamstress
skills would be required. Is it so hard to get in part time or casual staff to speed it up or catch up with
backlog?

Any web surfing will reveal no end of people who've said " Yeah, I'd buy it but I ain't waiting 3 or 4 months".
Me included.

So, I bought a cheap sewing machine, took some lessons from Mum [ not that hard actually ] and I'm
going to try a few things myself.

Rant over.....

then don't buy from them
Maybe they are happy with the size of their operation and so the waiting list is there and will be there. Not everyone wants to be another Macpac

[wayno]

are the waiting queues just seasonal demand or year round?
surely if you're waiting several months the queues must stretch most of the year and would warrant another employee or are they just keep it in the family businesses too tight to employ more people?
i've worked in companies like that before, tight fisted mentalities. or the "no one else is going to be able to do a good a job as us" mentality.
not that i'm saying its definitely the case certainly not with all the companies, but how much business are these companies loosing with the queues?
if you need gear by a certain date you have to buy it somewhere.... if they eployed more people the queues would come down and fewer people would go elsewhere,
i don't accept the quality is going to drop that much by just employing casual staff, it's called quality control... look at all the quality gear being mass produced now...

[Franco]

Davidf61
"So, I bought a cheap sewing machine, took some lessons from Mum [ not that hard actually ] and I'm
going to try a few things myself. "
My guess is that you will soon have a much better appreciation for the time, skill and cost involved in tent making....
As Henry Shires (Tarptent) stated recently, the first 90% is not all that difficult, the last 10% is.


BTW, tents to be somewhat price competitive need to be made in batches.
So it isn't practical to have independent sewers working at their place (transport costs...).
To have a bunch of them in a single place you need to guarantee ongoing work 12 months a year for several years.
That is one of the reasons why even US based cottage brands have/had gear made in China, finding a suitable factory in the US has proven to be a bit difficult.

[philthy]

With the all of the different add ons and customer customisable features all of these small companies have, if they were to stock them all their stock would run in the 1000s. I think it is more cost effective for them to begin the process but then make to order. The added bonus for us is that this encourages innovation- they aren't stuck with an old model that they created a surplus of, improvements can be shipped right away.

[photohiker]

Also, keep in mind that these are often not your typical entrepreneurs. They have an idea for a small gear making business of a size that they can manage. Often they have limited space (like a spare room or a shed) and they price their gear with reasonable profit margins so that they can live off those profits while the products are priced so that they will sell.

This is an entirely different model to the mainstream. Mainstream producers drive costs down very low so that they can derive a large margin between costs of production and retail price. They need to, because they have to feed themselves, their distributors, and their retailers, also keeping the retail price where the products will sell.

The delays happen because the cottage manufacturers are filling a void for personal design and production largely not able to be filled by the mainstream and their products become popular with a segment of the outdoor gear market. Cuben gear is a prime example. With a limited production capacity, increased demand just pushes out the delivery dates and it often is difficult to increase capacity due to space, working capital, lack of interest in becoming a larger business, etc. etc.

So the options are to build your own, buy mainstream, find a cottage maker who has short queues, hunt down a second hand copy here, BPL or ebay, or just wait like the rest of us.

[DannyS]

Personally I'm happy to know that there are industries out there that are not succumbing to the standard business model, increase to the demand and drive up profit until finally the manufacture of the product goes offshore, and we all know where that story ends up?
I'm happier to share this conversation, "I have to wait so long for my top quality hand made gear". Than the, "They used to make great gear but now it's all mass produced rubbish!".
I hope these cottage manufacturers maintain there ethical standard and don't succumb to the pressures of impatient people.

[Strider]

I'm not sure if these cottage industry products are actually hand-made. They are definitely produced en masse to a certain extent.

[KANANGRABOYD]

I'm not sure if these cottage industry products are actually hand-made. They are definitely produced en masse to a certain extent.

Which products?

[wayno]

if they are producing en masse, then why the waiting lists? are they only doing occasional factory runs when they have enough orders/funds?

[Davidf61]

Plus, you usually pay FULL price up front, including postage, so it's not like they're waiting for your money to cover expenses, they already have it!

We just bought a new car. Paid a healthy deposit, and said we will pay the rest when we have a car. Didn't that bring the delivery time down a hell
of a lot from the first arrival quote we got!

[wayno]

great system, they take everyones money up front and can invest it and make interest on it while you wait for your order...

[DannyS]

Plus, you usually pay FULL price up front, including postage, so it's not like they're waiting for your money to cover expenses, they already have it!

We just bought a new car. Paid a healthy deposit, and said we will pay the rest when we have a car. Didn't that bring the delivery time down a hell
of a lot from the first arrival quote we got!

I think your comparing apples and oranges here, car dealerships have at any given time a stock of all models in storage, and in numbers. It's just a matter of giving it a pre-delivery check, a detail and then delivering it to the new owner.
I think someone has already answered this in regards to it not being financially viable for a small cottage manufacturer to have large amounts of inventory?

[Davidf61]

Of course using a car in that context is wrong, I was merely trying to highlight the fact that things can move a bit quicker when the seller wants your money!

I'm really not trying to bash at small business concerns [ that are making fine products ] I just think a little bit more effort could be made when they already
have your cash.

[photohiker]

great system, they take everyones money up front and can invest it and make interest on it while you wait for your order...

Not quite. Uses it to fund raw materials and labour to build your order. Working capital poor. I guess that means they use the funds to minimise funding requirements and costs.

Also, as each order is basically a custom order, if you reneg on the deal the cottage has to pick up the pieces. I think I'd go for payment with order too.

[wayno]

is this gear really that much better than anything else that its worth the wait times?

[photohiker]

is this gear really that much better than anything else that its worth the wait times?

Yes

[wayno]

is this gear really that much better than anything else that its worth the wait times?

Yes

dont be so wishy washy in your answer

[DannyS]

Just received cuben duomid, my answer is definitely yes!

[Mark F]

Many if not most car yards act as agents for the importer and so don't own the inventory in their yard. Most small retailers have a large amount of capital tied up in their stock but it may come as a surprise to many of you that some large retailers have no inventory on their shelves that they have paid for. For example Woolworths (in total) owe 315 million more their suppliers than the value of stock on hand at 30/6/12 and the same has been true for at least the previous 5 years - over $700 million in 2008. (2012 Annual Report). I expect this is also true for Coles and several other large retailers.

With today's interest rates I wouldn't expect to be getting rich on interest earned on prepayments for gear.

Of the cottage guys I have purchased from, Zpacks and MDL appear to largely produce to order (other than accessories such as stuff sacks) but SMD seems to outsource batches of production to sewing shops so itrems are either out of stock or immediately available.

[SteveJ]

1st world problems........:-/

[Franco]

"produced en masse.."
One of the most successful Cuben shelter manufacturers is Z Packs.
Started by Joe Valesko and his wife only a few years ago, operating from their garage, it has recently moved to here :

employing several full time workers.
They make shelters/backpacks quilts and other bits all from that floor space.
Hardly the factory floor of an Asian manufacturer that pumps out 300-500 tents a day....

Another example is that you need to wait for the owner of another company to finish her hiking season to get a Cuben tent from her because she is the one making them...
Mind you many large brands such as Sierra Designs,Black Diamond and MSR originated from a similar set up however it took years, takeovers and overseas production to get where they are now .

[DannyS]

"produced en masse.."
One of the most successful Cuben shelter manufacturers is Z Packs.
Started by Joe Valesko and his wife only a few years ago, operating from their garage, it has recently moved to here :

employing several full time workers.
They make shelters/backpacks quilts and other bits all from that floor space.
Hardly the factory floor of an Asian manufacturer that pumps out 300-500 tents a day....

Another example is that you need to wait for the owner of another company to finish her hiking season to get a Cuben tent from her because she is the one making them...
Mind you many large brands such as Sierra Designs,Black Diamond and MSR originated from a similar set up however it took years, takeovers and overseas production to get where they are now .

Thanks for sharing that Franco, it's good to see how it's happening.

[GPSGuided]

All good things take Time! That's all.

[michael_p]

David,

Have a read of Joe from Zpacks comments on the first page of this thread at BPL: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=80587.

On the lighter side, if you think these are bad waiting times then I'd suggest never consider buying a Morgan Sports Car.

Cheers,
Michael.