Ultra-Light Sleeping Bag Suggestion?

[ILUVSWTAS]

Thats simply not true Balcksheep. I use a Mountain Hardware Phantom 45, which is a very similar bag. It's rated to a comfortable 0, weighs a whopping 550grams, and I have had it in very cold conditions, well under 0 degrees and have not needed socks or a beannie at all.

285gms of down is eff all... you'll be lucky to get away with that amount long term once a bit of down falls out and the loft packs down a bit.

Stay tuned then folks for the conclusion of this thrilling episode.....

[ollster]

Stay tuned then folks for the conclusion of this thrilling episode.....

ILUVSWTAS, in ENTs absence, you could be the one to take on the mantle of the harasser of all things NZ (including or excluding various coloured sheep, your choice).

[ILUVSWTAS]

Meh, I like some macpac gear, i own quite a bit. I just dont think that comment about the sleeping bag was totally true. As SO FAR mine has performed exceptionally well.

[blacksheep]

Meh, I like some macpac gear, i own quite a bit. I just dont think that comment about the sleeping bag was totally true. As SO FAR mine has performed exceptionally well.

i meant no ill will on Mont Bell- they use great fabric and great down on that product...but the simple fact is 285gms is not a lot (we use more than that in some down jackets)...I'd be taking warm stuff to supplement the insulation when walking in alpine and sub-alpine areas. Feel free to interpret that as you will

[flatfoot]

Meh, I like some macpac gear, i own quite a bit. I just dont think that comment about the sleeping bag was totally true. As SO FAR mine has performed exceptionally well.

i meant no ill will on Mont Bell- they use great fabric and great down on that product...but the simple fact is 285gms is not a lot (we use more than that in some down jackets)...I'd be taking warm stuff to supplement the insulation when walking in alpine and sub-alpine areas. Feel free to interpret that as you will

I'll certainly use a thermal liner ... and if I'm cold make use of long thermals. I was planning to take those items with me anyway.

[sthughes]

All depends on the individual and their tent. In a small solid inner tent that bag would be fine for me in all but the coldest conditions here in Tas. But in a larger tent or one with a mesh inner then yeah I'd pack some socks and thermals if the weather was likely to be cool. I've noticed going from a Microlight to a 2 man (with some mesh panels) that I'm not anywhere near as warm as I used to be. But that's just me, everyone sleeps at different temps.

Good to see Macpac have some decent bags out, I quite like the look of the Express line. Shame about the prices though.

[Nuts]

Marmots U/L range are great. I use the Atom ( http://www.basegear.com/marmot-atom-sle ... -sale.html) 3 seasons (its rated 40F) but is fine to around a few degrees, ok in the minuses with a jacket.
Seems its more about keeping the down in (and in the right place) with the lightweight bags. The atom weighs around 600g from memory.
It doesnt have the w/proof outer like the arroyo but when ive used a lightweight bivy (not much more weight) it is likely a tad warmer than arroyo.

Im sure the lightest options from the other reputable brands would be just as good, niggly things like collars, zip length/side, baffles and so on probably make the selling points. Price wouldn't? be an issue for someone who buys an ultralight summer bag, they should already have an all season bag somewhere..

Blacksheeps point is valid.
Shell weight + Fill weight = Temperature rating, no magic.. seems to me that those who are happy with some unscrupulous brands claims were likely warm sleepers either way.

[Nuts]

http://www.basegear.com/marmot-atom-sle ... -sale.html

woah, that was quick, who bought them all???

(disclaimer...don't take my word as gospel, I think they're great but how many bags can one bloke try... im not god, that other guy is.... )

[Lizzy]

I read the Montbell spiral uses 10oz of 800 loft- that is about 285gm.(that's 25% less down than our express 400)
nice warm weather bag, but pack warm socks and a beanie for tassie use!

This bag is ggreat for ost of my trips & if I'm heading to the colder climes of NZ or Tassie I am happy to wear a beanie, sox & a down jacket if I need it- I have those things anyway so don't mind wearing them to bed if I am feeling a bit chilly. The regular is only for 5"10 too... suits me just fine Everyone is different- you have to consider your prioritites- a large one of mine is getting the pack weight and size down a bit so I can lug the kids stuff too....
Cheers
Lizzy

[blacksheep]

I read the Montbell spiral uses 10oz of 800 loft- that is about 285gm.(that's 25% less down than our express 400)
nice warm weather bag, but pack warm socks and a beanie for tassie use!

This bag is ggreat for ost of my trips .......
Cheers
Lizzy

see, Lizzie is still shivering

just curious, did anyone find an EN testing on this bag...I was wondering how they claim -1c wherease we get -4c with over 100gms more down (and our last batch was 830 loft)? again, genuine query, I couldn't find any reference to EN testing, anyone got a link?

[sthughes]

I read the Montbell spiral uses 10oz of 800 loft- that is about 285gm.(that's 25% less down than our express 400)
nice warm weather bag, but pack warm socks and a beanie for tassie use!

This bag is ggreat for ost of my trips .......
Cheers
Lizzy

see, Lizzie is still shivering

Good call Cam.

just curious, did anyone find an EN testing on this bag...I was wondering how they claim -1c wherease we get -4c with over 100gms more down (and our last batch was 830 loft)? again, genuine query, I couldn't find any reference to EN testing, anyone got a link?

Yes I noticed this to, I'm always skeptical of non-EN rated bags.

For comparison an EN rated Marmot Arroyo (also -1c) has 10% more down (same loft) and must have much heavier fabric as it weighs lots more. So I'm skeptical as well. From the raw numbers it would seem Mont Bell are either overstating the warmth, or greatly understating the loft rating or weight. Having said that the Mont Bell is a slightly smaller bag.

Edit: The Atom that Nuts linked to has the same down amount, but higher loft, fill and it is rated 5 degrees less warm!

Last edited by sthughes on Mon 15 Nov, 2010 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Tony]

Interesting discussion, as some are aware I have just purchased a Western Mountaineering Summerlite bag, I hope to use it for the first time with some of my other new gear (pack, tent, Neoair sleeping mat, and down jacket) on weekend 27-29th November, on the Main Range KNP.

This is an interesting article on lightweight sleeping bags, this article had some influence on my decision to go for the Summerlite (unfortunately you have to pay to read it).
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... _2010.html

Here is a link to the Western Mountaineering loft information http://www.westernmountaineering.com/in ... ct-Details, I must compare the test method to the EN standards.

Just found this earlier discussion on loft ratings. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2275

Tony

[Lizzy]

I read the Montbell spiral uses 10oz of 800 loft- that is about 285gm.(that's 25% less down than our express 400)
nice warm weather bag, but pack warm socks and a beanie for tassie use!

This bag is ggreat for ost of my trips .......
Cheers
Lizzy

see, Lizzie is still shivering

just curious, did anyone find an EN testing on this bag...I was wondering how they claim -1c wherease we get -4c with over 100gms more down (and our last batch was 830 loft)? again, genuine query, I couldn't find any reference to EN testing, anyone got a link?

well you can always buy a heavier bag if you don't think its enough for you... I have read quite a few reviews on backpackinglight US website where people seem to think the rating is accurate- but it is very subjective and depends on what you are sleeping on/in/wearing/have eaten/ whether you are male or female etc etc.
Personally I am happy with my bag (which is all that matters) & know I can booost it up if I need too or just take my old Fairydown heater (if I could fit it in & wanted to lug 1.5kg).
Cam I have and like lots of olderr Macpac gear but its just so hard to justify the cost with todays online global market. Yes there are risks buying online and often there is a leap of faith but you need to do your research & choose something that suits your needs. The Montbell bag suits mine, was a fair price, what more could I ask. Its not for everyone- some people will hate it.... thats up to them to work out. Same goes for products like Tarptent- some love it, some don't....
ta ta
Lizzy
PS Will report how the Montbell goes in the SW soon Hopefully I wont ffffrrreeeeezzzeee my butt off

[sthughes]

I have read quite a few reviews on backpackinglight US website where people seem to think the rating is accurate- but it is very subjective and depends on what you are sleeping on/in/wearing/have eaten/ whether you are male or female etc etc.

This is the whole point of the EN13537 rating system as it is done to a scientific standard rather than just on anecdotal evidence. Even in a -1 degree EN rated bag some will be warm at -5 and some will be cold at +5 degrees, but in a bag with the same EN rating those same people at the same temperatures etc. will feel the same level of comfort. However someone who is on the borderline of being cold in an -1 degree EN rated bag may be properly cold in a Mont Bell one with it's own unique rating of -1.

Mont Bell bags aren't bad, know one is saying that, and this particular bag is probably a very good one for the use. It's just that seem they don't give EN ratings it's important to compare loft and fill quantities rather than temperature ratings.

However if you are comparing say a Marmot to a One Planet then you can use the temp ratings as they both conform to EN13537.
I.E: Marmot Arroyo -1 degrees, 800+ loft, 310g fill, One Planet Cocoon 300 -1 degree, 800+ loft, 300g fill. Both have nearly identical specs and hence an identical EN rating. Of course once you get into heavier weight (and waterproof etc.) materials this helps along the ratings, but if both have the same materials, the same size and the same fill then under EN13537 they should have the same rating.

[roba9988]

I was curious with this post what the EN 13537 standard's rating were based on. It looks like the standard has 4 ratings but for minimum temperature there are two that are for 2 different types of person:

These give ratings for a standard man weighing 80kg and for a standard woman weighing 60kg.

The EN 13537 Comfort rating is based on a ‘standard’ woman having a comfortable night’s
sleep.
The EN 13537 Lower Limit is based on the lowest temperature at which as ‘standard’ adult
male is deemed to be able to have a comfortable night’s sleep.

So even in the tests there is some variation depending on the size of the person. I don't know if that helps you guys but it makes a bit more sense to me when i see those ratings.

[sthughes]

Yes 4 ratings. Usually the "lower limit" is the one quoted but you do need to make sure!

[isoma]

Another bag that would fit the bill ( I've put this on my wifes christmas shopping list for me ) is the MEC Merlin -3.
Has 350g 850+ goose fill and weighs in at a whopping 690g. A friend has one and is very happy with it.

[flatfoot]

I placed my order via moontrail. They gave an estimate of between 5 and 30 days via USPS Express Mail. If it takes longer than 26 days, I'll be walking the OT with my old sleeping bag. I expect to see it in 2 weeks although ... then again the silly season is approaching

Total price including shipping USD $315.69

(I ordered the larger size)

The bag arrived! I'm quite happy with it after an initial inspection. It's supplied with both a stuffsack for use when trekking and a cotton storage bag (about the size of a pillow case). The volume of the bag in it's stuff sack is about 1/3 of the volume of my old bag in a compression sack. This will free up a significant amount space in the bottom section of my pack.

Overnight temperatures at home are currently ranging from 14 to 20 degrees so a real test is not really possible. My first chance to test it in colder conditions will be in a cabin the night before I setoff on the Overland Track.

[neil_fahey]

Mine came on Friday too... Can't believe how quick that was! Haven't tested mine out either but I can definitely confirm that it's small and light!

[rcaffin]

(shhh, don't tell anyone I told you this, but in a couple of weeks one of these will set you back a tad over $400, and you'll get a a $25 gift card rebate too)
http://www.macpac.com.au/shop/en_au/gea ... s-400.html

Hi blacksheep

> Comfort 2ºC / Limit -4ºC / Extreme -21ºC
I don't mind the 6 C drop in going from Comfort to Limit under the new EN Standard: that's quite common. But expecting us to believe a drop of 17 C in going from Limit to Extreme is a bit of an ask. I am not aware of many tested overseas bags which can claim that much of a drop. Do you have an independent Test Lab report to substantiate this? In-house testing will not suffice.

Actually, expecting us to believe that 400 g of '800+' loft down can keep you from hypothermia at -21 C under standard EN test conditions is ... hugely unrealistic. You would need a full down suit inside the bag, and a very good friend on either side of you for that. Been there with UL bags, and ...

May I assume that the '800+' loft is using the American IDFL enhanced down preparation techniques?

Just curious
Cheers

[Lizzy]

Gotta report that I was a tad chilly on my recent trip to the SW in my Montbell 30degree F bag- but I might add that I may have underestimated the weather.... I should also add that I was in a tent with alot of mesh, was solo & not exactly warm before going to bed anyway, with a 3/4 cooked freeze dried meal (cooking between bursts of hail). Seeing as I am female I guess it wouldn't be good for me down to 30 (-1) anyway.I did however have a down jacket to boost up the warmth & a couple of pairs of thermals- so am here to tell the tale! Still, I like the bag- it is what it is- an extremely light bag, pretty good value (in my opinion), that will suit most of my trips & I can always boost its warmth by adding layers/liners/sleeping mats
Cheers
Lizzy

[blacksheep]

(shhh, don't tell anyone I told you this, but in a couple of weeks one of these will set you back a tad over $400, and you'll get a a $25 gift card rebate too)
http://www.macpac.com.au/shop/en_au/gea ... s-400.html

Hi blacksheep

> Comfort 2ºC / Limit -4ºC / Extreme -21ºC
I don't mind the 6 C drop in going from Comfort to Limit under the new EN Standard: that's quite common. But expecting us to believe a drop of 17 C in going from Limit to Extreme is a bit of an ask. I am not aware of many tested overseas bags which can claim that much of a drop. Do you have an independent Test Lab report to substantiate this? In-house testing will not suffice.

Actually, expecting us to believe that 400 g of '800+' loft down can keep you from hypothermia at -21 C under standard EN test conditions is ... hugely unrealistic. You would need a full down suit inside the bag, and a very good friend on either side of you for that. Been there with UL bags, and ...

May I assume that the '800+' loft is using the American IDFL enhanced down preparation techniques?

Just curious
Cheers

Hi Roger,

We test all our bags at Kansas State University, where I'm sure you'll find most of the US brands that test to EN standards also test...Personally,I'm not at all surprised by the temperature range, we see that limit of comfort and extreme ratings often differ by 20dgrees C when tested. (I don't make the EN standards, or define them, I just submit our designs for testing and report the test results. We do not have testing facilities here at Macpac, so we can only report EN 13537 tests that have been conducted independently.)



(for those here less familiar with EN 13537 Temperature ratings, the three temperatures given are defined as follows)
Comfort
The temperature at which the person in the sleeping bag is in thermal equilibrium; not feeling cold throughout the entire body. (reference: standard woman in standard conditions; in relaxed posture, such as lying on back).

Limit of comfort
Lower limit of comfort range. The temperature at which the person in the sleeping bag is in thermal equilibrium; not feeling cold throughout the entire body. (reference: standard man in ‘fighting against cold’ situation; such as rolled up body posture).

Extreme
Lower temperature extreme where the risk of hypothermia occurs. Situation of high cold stress, which can be maintained for a limited duration of six hours. (reference: standard woman in standard conditions of use; rolled up in the bag to minimise thermal loss through the sleeping bag).

The loft ratings are all testing with IDFL (International Down and Feather Laboratory, based in Utah, USA), using the IDFB-10-B test method, which as you may know is the standard adopted by all of the USA companies, and most international brands.

Hope that clears up your queries? Perhaps some of your UL bags were only blessed with a down jackets worth of fill, and were never actually lab tested?

Cam

[Tony]

Hi Roger,

(shhh, don't tell anyone I told you this, but in a couple of weeks one of these will set you back a tad over $400, and you'll get a a $25 gift card rebate too)
http://www.macpac.com.au/shop/en_au/gea ... s-400.html

Hi blacksheep

> Comfort 2ºC / Limit -4ºC / Extreme -21ºC
I don't mind the 6 C drop in going from Comfort to Limit under the new EN Standard: that's quite common. But expecting us to believe a drop of 17 C in going from Limit to Extreme is a bit of an ask. I am not aware of many tested overseas bags which can claim that much of a drop. Do you have an independent Test Lab report to substantiate this? In-house testing will not suffice.

Actually, expecting us to believe that 400 g of '800+' loft down can keep you from hypothermia at -21 C under standard EN test conditions is ... hugely unrealistic. You would need a full down suit inside the bag, and a very good friend on either side of you for that. Been there with UL bags, and ...

May I assume that the '800+' loft is using the American IDFL enhanced down preparation techniques?

Just curious
Cheers

Interesting debate.

Here is some information from Kathmandu on their sleeping bags (from the latest so called "sale" catalog), the stated T Extreme temp ratings are even more interesting.

Tony

[Nuts]

Those extreme ratings (in reality) are meaningless... All they do is suggest a lower temperature into the mind of someone buying, not that that temperature has anything to do with spending a comfortable night out (ie what buyers really expect) 'Standards' or not, it lessens a manufacturers credibility to advertise the extreme rating. Some even use it as a main marketing point, comfort coming second...

[blacksheep]

Those extreme ratings (in reality) are meaningless... All they do is suggest a lower temperature into the mind of someone buying, not that that temperature has anything to do with spending a comfortable night out (ie what buyers really expect) 'Standards' or not, it lessens a manufacturers credibility to advertise the extreme rating. Some even use it as a main marketing point, comfort coming second...

In use, true,no real meaning in applying to how you may wish to use the product..the real value is in comparing, and using as a guide on sleeping bags all tested to the same standard.
It would absolutely not be correct to market the product based on the extreme rating; that is setting up to kill people (in extreme situations).

Last edited by blacksheep on Thu 25 Nov, 2010 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Nuts]

Yes, its a credit that you haven't called it the express 21. The next step would be to leave out the extreme rating, boldly go where few others yet tread

[nathanashton]

Campsaver have 20% off Montbell at the moment....Just ordered an UL Super Spiral #3 in the long for 288AUD delivered.

Hope I like it

[Capt DropBear]

Although not neccessarily in line with "ultra-light", more in line with the EN 13537 discussion above - does anybody know if MD's range of sleeping bags are rated by the standard? I've always assumed their upper and lower temp ratings are the T Comfort and T Limit (and they don't list the T Extreme) of EN 13537 - but not having seen any mention of it on the website, I'm not so sure. Just like to compare apples with apples, as it be...


EDIT: If all else fails, ask MD The bags aren't rated to EN 13537, but are instead rated to BS 5335 - with their upper and lower ratings comparable to the T Comfort and T Limit of EN 13537. Too easy

[Lizzy]

Would be interested to hear how any others that bought the montbell UL sleeping bags went- was it warm enough, where/when have you used it? Mine has been great in NSW & NZ but was a bit chilly in some harsh Tassie WA weather. With any luck I may get to try it in some February Tassie weather
Cheers
Lizzy

[flatfoot]

Would be interested to hear how any others that bought the montbell UL sleeping bags went- was it warm enough, where/when have you used it? Mine has been great in NSW & NZ but was a bit chilly in some harsh Tassie WA weather. With any luck I may get to try it in some February Tassie weather
Cheers
Lizzy

I used my Montbell spiral hugger rated to 0 degress C for the first time in Tasmania whilst on the OT. We slummed it in the huts - so not really a good test . I generally slept in shorts and a long-sleeve top or t-shirt. I was warm enough that I didn't bother breaking out my thermalite reactor. Sometimes my feet felt cold so I would don ankle socks. There were a couple of nights where I wore thermals to bed. They were for warmth in and around the huts. I was using the bag with my exped downmat. There was cloud cover most nights so this probably kept the temperature higher than it otherwise would have been. I have an el-cheapo thermometer keychain on my pack but condensation built up in that preventing me from taking any readings.

I think I felt coldest sleeping in the bag on a mattress @ my brother's place in Kingston over Chrissy. This was probably a consequence of being close to a window which was only covered by vertical blinds.