Bushwalker fined - activity risks the safety of self/others

[roysta]

http://blog.oplopanax.ca/2011/11/on-blaming-the-victim/

Interesting narrative, except the media can sometimes say more but doesn't.
Also, perhaps more of the people who 'sit on the fence' on issues like this should seek out and speak to volunteers who get involved in call-outs.
It's only the more serious incidents that end up being reported.
Believe me, there are a lot more idiots out there than you would believe.

[colinm]

https://www.facebook.com/NoChargeforRescue (referenced from above) is a FB group about this issue. Good background material.

[ryantmalone]

Can those in the know on this thread, say why the four canyoners who were under provisioned and needed rescuing on the 27th Dec, why they were not fined $500 each?

Only one space blanket between them. No second rope and they were navigationally challenged.

Something isn't holding true.

Warren.

I think there's more to both stories than the media is reporting.

A story of some guy carrying only potatos and naan bread (presumed to be Indian by readers) suffers a "minor" ankle injury needs to be winched out.

The way that the media has structured that story is in a way that is designed to cause outrage, and the response in these forums is proof of just that.

These other guys that you speak of Warren, they were also stuck, they were ill equipped to complete their trip, and required an air lift out.

What we don't know is what else are these people carrying. Do they have the most basic of items, a map, compass, warm and wet weather gear, a first aid kit, and if they did get stuck, could they get out?

I'd be curious to know the items that both parties were carrying, because I believe that is going to be the difference between a 500$ fine, and no fine.

[ryantmalone]

I think it is premature for us (the bushwalking community) to pass judgement without knowing the full facts. We do not know how experienced the walker was and what gear he was carrying besides his food. We do not know his intended route.

I actually mentioned this in another thread only a few minutes ago. The media will report a "story", and that story will always be crafted in a way that is designed to make a person feel a certain way towards people in that story.

Unfortunately, the type of story that entertains more is not the one where you are thankful that the person is OK, but the one where you can place judgement on a person.

In this story, it was implied that an inexperienced bushwalker, who carried potatoes and naan bread (giving the assumption that the guy is Indian), and suffered a "minor" ankle injury, required an airlift out of an area that he walked into.

For what we know, he may have also have had a map. He may have forgotten his first aid kit (as I have done once or twice). He may have had a tent or a bivvy, or a sleeping bag, maybe even a stove, or a billy can and firelighters. We don't know this, but all we have to form an opinion on is what the media has reported.

I'm just happy the guy is OK, and (hopefully) has learned a bit of a lesson out of all of this.

I've been stuck in my fair share of hairy situations both here in Victoria, and in Tassie, and there will be more to come. Today alone, I twisted my ankle quite badly in Werribee Gorge, but I'm more hardened than some, so I walked it out. Some wouldn't. Some would call for help, just like this guy did. For what we know, he could have even agitated an existing injury, who knows. We sure as hell don't...

[nq111]

I think it is premature for us (the bushwalking community) to pass judgement without knowing the full facts. We do not know how experienced the walker was and what gear he was carrying besides his food. We do not know his intended route.

I agree. Not fair to pass judgement as we don't have anything near the full facts. I hope the police got it right as this is a bad signal otherwise.

Today alone, I twisted my ankle quite badly in Werribee Gorge, but I'm more hardened than some, so I walked it out.

Wearing boots or shoes?

[neilmny]

We only have the bits of info that the media want us to have so that they have an on going story to help sell there advertising.
If the full facts were revealled they possibly would have had to let it go days ago. All I've heard is idiot, potatoes, naan bread. There has to be more.
If the control freaks successfully take over and try to stop the healthy persuit of bushwalking we should get Fatcanyoner and his nuded up mates to camp on the
steps of parliament.....that'd give em something to write about

[neilmny]

...............

[Son of a Beach]

Moderator note: Two topics have been merged here (and title changed to include aspects of both topic titles). Although the two topics originally had different foci, they ended up having much the same discussion, and a lot of duplication.

[mikethepike]

I'm beginning to think that that $500 fine could be setting a bad precedent for S&R in this country. Perhaps the guy should take a lead from South Australia and not pay the fine. Incredibly, there is over $230,000,000 in unpaid fines in SA and the Gov't continues to wonder about how to recover even some of that money!

[doogs]

meh.. at times we all make mistakes. He'd probably done a few overnight track walks and smashed the recommended times and thought it would be a similar situation with off track ones. Quit your bitchin' and get out of your armchairs and go for a walk

[Rob A]

There are more expensive rescues that leave a lot of people in a world of hurt. You will never be able to tell whether it was an unforseeable accident or an accident because people had bitten off more than they could chew. In which case should someone be allowed to arbitrarily pin a fine? Todays expense .... http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-02/n ... ction=news

[corvus]

"It is a wise man who never makes a mistake"
corvus

[colinm]

Just learned that the NPWS Regulations 2009 comes up for review in 2014. It may be worth thinking about what changes could or should be made.

[tastrax]

I'm beginning to think that that $500 fine could be setting a bad precedent for S&R in this country. Perhaps the guy should take a lead from South Australia and not pay the fine. Incredibly, there is over $230,000,000 in unpaid fines in SA and the Gov't continues to wonder about how to recover even some of that money!

Tassie is getting better at collecting fines etc - even includes names and addresses of offenders (check out the spreadsheet)

http://www.justice.tas.gov.au/fines/enf ... tionofname

[neilmny]

Errr....wouldn't that list being readily available to anyone contravene the privacy act?

[colinm]

Errr....wouldn't that list being readily available to anyone contravene the privacy act?

It's a state, it's not bound by its own laws. If they wanted to hang people for not paying their fines the only recourse you'd have is try to vote them out.

[Ent]

Errr....wouldn't that list being readily available to anyone contravene the privacy act?

It's a state, it's not bound by its own laws. If they wanted to hang people for not paying their fines the only recourse you'd have is try to vote them out.

Tasmanian Fines enforcement tends to adopt a take no prisoner approach and are extremely unpleasant to deal with even when a bureaucratic stuff-up means that a person is incorrectly fined to the point of demanding that the fine is paid even if the raising bureaucracy has clearly told them it is a mistake, ie, wrong person. I kid you not that the other department head that mistakenly issued the fine was shocked by Enforcements’ single mindlessness to the point of funding a court case to reverse Enforcements’ action (which succeeded). I am sure that the department head of Fines Enforcement would be more than happy to hang people as their approach is very 17th century.

As you may gather, I am not a fan of them after I was hounded to death for a matter that had long been acknowledged as an administrative error. They could not even bring themselves to apologise

Cheers

[Drifting]

potato curry and naan bread. Yummy!

(Sorry- I'm glad to see someone fined. Like the lady that set off on the OT a few years ago with two loaves of bread in a grocery bag, and made it to Waterfall Valley. Hmmm....)

[MartyGwynne]

Good thread.
I happily volunteer to help search/rescue people who need it and don't expect them to pay for the service (many comments have stated it is 'live training' for the S&R teams).
That said I am happy to support the police in issuing a fine as deemed necessary (I would be surprised if they thought they would just have a crack at issuing a fine for the hell of it - or the press). The Police must have had very good reason to issue the fine.

Now that said I must get off my armchair and go walking ("Where's my spuds and....")

[cdg]

Ive gone on extended hikes and used a hand reel to feed me my main protein. This is only practical in areas where there are rivers, and i have allowed the time for fishing. i always carry plenty of high energy food and water. I'd like to hear mr potatoes and naans version of events as well.

[davidm]

Mr Naan bread and potatoes is looking like a genius compared to the poor bugger that's lost in the blue mountains now. You gotta be a bit crazy to ignore warnings of catastrophic storms to go solo canyoning

Hopefully he's found safely and quickly.


"A search is under way for a 26-year-old canyoner who's believed to be in trouble in wild weather in bushland west of Sydney.
A personal locator beacon (PLB) was activated east of Mt Wilson in the Blue Mountains area just before 7pm (AEDT) on Monday.
It's believed it was set off by a 26-year-old man from Queanbeyan who was canyoning in the area.
A preliminary search for the man is now under way by the Blue Mountains Police Rescue Squad, Ambulance Special Casualty Access Team and Hawkesbury SES personnel.
Advertisement
Due to poor lighting and bad weather, a full-scale search will resume at first light on Tuesday, police said."
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/canyoner-in-d ... z2JJ1rVSZv

[FatCanyoner]

Mr Naan bread and potatoes is looking like a genius compared to the poor bugger that's lost in the blue mountains now. You gotta be a bit crazy to ignore warnings of catastrophic storms to go solo canyoning

Yeah, the conditions will be pretty terrible up there. I know a couple friends who were canyoning a little further north. They woke up on Sunday morning to find the main creek had rises 1 - 2 metres. They abandoned the rest of their trip and pulled out. Given it continued to rain, and actually got heavier, throughout Sunday and Monday makes me wonder how this guy even got in to where he is. Perhaps he set off on Thursday night / Friday morning, when the weather forecasts were actually quite reasonable, and has been trying to sit it out. All he needs to have done in cross one major creek prior to the rain and there's no way he's getting back across it for a couple days!

[michael_p]

Mr Naan bread and potatoes is looking like a genius compared to the poor bugger that's lost in the blue mountains now. You gotta be a bit crazy to ignore warnings of catastrophic storms to go solo canyoning...

Read that article this morning and immediately wondered why anyone would go canyoning in yesterdays conditions.

[ILUVSWTAS]

I believe they have found him.

IF he ignored the warnings, they should have ignored his need for help....

[DaveNoble]

I don't think we know the facts here! When did the walker/canyoner set off? Was it a one day trip or a longer trip - eg 3 days? After all it was a long weekend. The press release did not make that clear. Being found very close (500m) from the Bowens Ck Bridge suggest he was doing a longer trip - eg all the way down the south branch of Bowens Ck to the Bridge? (= 3 days quality canyoning, and a great trip, and a nice trip for a long weekend) - Yes, one with rain forecast - but the forecast for the Central Tablelands issued on Friday was for "isolated showers" over the long weekend - NOT major rain.

I know this, because I was on a three day canyoning trip, a little north of Mt Wilson, and had looked up the forecast before setting off. We also encountered more rain than was forecast. Saturday was a fine day with no rain. We had storm in the early hours of Sunday morning - from about 3am to 8am - heavy rain - and the nearby creek did go up a lot. We waited till lunchtime, and with only very light rain and the creek down - set off for a canyon - and had a great day. On Monday - we walked out - down a creek for the first part - and things were quite OK walking wise. We did however cancel plans for one more canyon on Monday and made a decision to head out early to the pub.

A lot of parties were out in the Blue Mts on the long weekend - and had to cope with bad weather. This particular canyoner that was overdue did at least carry a PLB - so it made his location obvious and he was quickly found and was able to walk out.

Dave

[Rob A]

Just out of interest, where are you guys getting your weather from?
No one round my way didnt know that the weather was going to be absolutely brutal. There was plenty of warning.
But I wasnt thinking of screenshotting stuff to for an "I think its inccredible people are so dense" post three or four days later.
Maybe it might be constructive if the bushwalk site ran a link and section to reliable weather sites to promote some sort of centre for dropping in for last minute "what do you reckons".

[DaveNoble]

Just out of interest, where are you guys getting your weather from?
No one round my way didnt know that the weather was going to be absolutely brutal. There was plenty of warning.
But I wasnt thinking of screenshotting stuff to for an "I think its inccredible people are so dense" post three or four days later.
Maybe it might be constructive if the bushwalk site ran a link and section to reliable weather sites to promote some sort of centre for dropping in for last minute "what do you reckons".

I'm not sure where you're way is, but the weather forecast I was referring to was from the BOM issued for Katoomba and the one for Lithgow (=Central Tablelands forecast). Sunday forecast was for "isolated showers" for that area. Heavy rain was forecast for the Sydney area and Illawarra I think. As things turned out - at Mt Boyce - there was about 50mm of rain on Sunday morning between 3am and 9am - a fair bit of rain, but not extreme or unusual. On Monday afternoon - after about 4pm there was about another 90mm of rainfall at Mt Boyce. This is a larger fall - but again - not extreme, and later than most bushwalkers/canyoners would be out for a long weekend. The weekend's weather was not actually that bad until late on Monday.

I can remember a weekend storm back in 1978, when we had over 300mm in a few hours. That was a lot of rain! We were out bushwalking. That was when some of our party was overdue.

Dave

[Rob A]

Newcastle.
We tend to look at both BOM and Willyweather.
The marine forecasts are worth a look on the BOM site, particularly the wind warnings, and the interactive maps for the general trend of australia wide systems.
eg http://www.bom.gov.au/marine/wind.shtml
In this case we were watching the general trend following the north qld cyclone, Bribie island storms and the like, and where they were headed, and whatever else was moving up and down the coast in the seven day predictions.
You had to know stuff was coming from a long way out. Added to that, there were fairly severe late afternoon events following the intense heat on most days coming into the storms, even if it didnt result in excessive preciptation. Maybe picking the exact time for a deluge at your location is a tall ask, but bad stuff was certainly on the cards.

[colinm]

This is an animated representation of the detailed data they use for forecasts:

http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/charts/ ... ndex.shtml

There's a variant for surface temperature too.

I find it most informative.

[Rob A]

At the moment that one shows the relationship that exists between hte Qld Kiwi South island events.