Gear/advice for my first snow camping trip

[FootTrack]

Hello,

I was hoping I might be able to get some advice off you knowledgeable folk in regards to snow camping. I am planning my first snow camping trip this June/July up in the Australian Alps and I thought that before I went out and bought my gear I would get some recommendations first so I don’t waste my money buying the wrong equipment! I already have a full summer kit including a four season tent, the Hilleberg Nammatj 2, and I have recently bought a Voile Mini Telepro T6 shovel. What other gear do you guys think I should have?

I am looking at potentially upgrading my old, cheap synthetic sleeping bag to a lighter, warmer down one but I wasn’t too sure which one would be the best for the temperatures up there…I also was considering buying a down jacket to keep myself a bit warmer. After a fair bit of searching I thought the Katabatic Gear Palisade might be the wag to go as I could use it in the summer also. If I then bought a good down jacket I thought I might be able to combine the two, to create a solid winter sleeping system up there? The Palisade is a lot lighter than my current 1.6 kg bag and I thought it might function well, as being a quilt I can wear a down jacket under it without compromising loft.

As for a down jacket how much 800 fill should I be looking for in one for the Aussie Alps in winter? Would a jacket like the Feather Friends Hooded Helios (225 g) or the Rab Neutrino (221 g) be the way to go? How much importance do you guys put on a waterproof shell material for Australian conditions? Would the Feathered Friends Volant (311 g) be too much?

Lastly, I will be looking to get a pair of snowshoes for my trip too. I’m after a durable pair that I will be able to use later for longer trips e.g. the AAWT. What do you guys fancy out there at the moment/have had good experiences with?

Thanks for your time, I appreciate it as a newcomer to winter camping. Hopefully I can learn a bit from some of your knowledge so that my trip is both safer and more enjoyable.

FootTrack

[Moondog55]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16056

[Strider]

Quilts are fantastic though the Palisade might not be ideal for summer due to having a sewn footbox. Have you looked at Enlightened Equipment quilts? The Revelation opens up completely flat, if needed.

[FootTrack]

Thanks for the link Moondog55 - there is plenty of great information I have pulled out of there.

Just checked out the Revelation, Strider - looks fantastic! Being able to open it up like that would be a definite advantage I reckon come summer, the customization possibilities are also good and the price is excellent when compared to other quilts in its class. Have you used this particular model yourself before?

If I was to get this bag with a -1 oC temperature rating, do you have an idea of what fill amount I would need in a down jacket to satisfy most Australian snow conditions?

[Strider]

Yes I have a Rev 20F. Have never used it in the snow nor can I comment on what might work for you. We are all different when it comes to warmth requirements.

[Moondog55]

With a quilt rated to -1C you may also need to have extra insulation for the legs, either pants or a half bag. As for the down jacket I concur with Strider, you will need to experiment but better a little too warm than cold.
if you have read all of the threads linked in my first post you may see that I personally go for a comfort level of 0F/-18C for the margin of safety [ system total]

[Franco]

To me the important part in managing cold weather is to have similar insulation all over.
So like Moondog I would suggest insulated pants too as well as a correct mat for the temp (I would look at R5 or better) and of course dry warm socks, hat and gloves.
I prefer layering so for example my gloves are a thin liner, merino wool over that and waterproof mittens .
That combo works with my walking poles (can't use my wool gloves alone with those) , in sleet/rain and inside the sb.

And...
If you are warm in your clothing standing still you will be soaked wet from sweat using the same when walking , particularly with a pack.
So don't be afraid to start feeling cool/cold...

[FootTrack]

Thanks again for your responses guys. I would be lost without your help.

I have an original NeoAir mattress and a Prolite Plus, so if I bring both of them, hopefully I shouldn't have too many issues there. And I will definitely make a note to pack a set of tracksuit pants if I go that way.

I should probably get to a shop so I can try on different weight jackets and test them myself I think. Would it be unheard of to wear a down jacket with 311 g of 800 fill loft in Australia though, like the Volant? I really like the jacket but I'm worried it might be just too hot over here and I don't want to be constantly changing in and out of a really warm jacket...Or maybe I might be better of getting a lighter jacket like the Montbell Frost Smoke Parka (100g) and pairing this with the Rab Neutrino (225g). It would hit the pocket pretty hard but at least I could regulate my temperature a lot better...

Out of interest, what makes up your system Moondog to be able to get down to -18C? And is it naive of me to think I could use a sleeping bag like this for both summer and winter, with winter additions obviously?

[Moondog55]

I think I explained my system in one of those linked posts FootTrack
I have a couple of specialised winter expedition bags made a couple of decades ago by J&H the fore-runner of One Planet. They are zipless oversized bags filled with very good quality down.
Weigh about a kilo each [ one is slightly over-filled by ~80 grams] and work as an over bag for a double bag system or a full down suit inside.
Inside the bivvy sack to remove windchill the bag on its own is good to around -4C.
It would be much warmer but an oversized bag has a lot of space inside to warm up and they tend to pump out warm air every time you move as well. My only down garment at the moment is a big Everest from MD with about 500 grams of down in it.
I did have some light weight down pants as well
If you want I can find some more pictures
It is total thickness of insulation that determines the warmth of the bag, it is the quality of the materials that determines the weight and bulk.
I seem to remember measuring the loft of mine at around 300mm when the parka was placed inside the SB.
This winter I will be using a very light half bag in place of the down pants so I expect it to be much warmer
Far too warm for summer, OK for Spring and Autumn if up high

[crispyscapes]

Hey FootTrack did you end up getting the Helios or Volant? I have the same dilemma at the moment and I can't decide.

[Moondog55]

I am also interested in how the trip/experiment went

[FootTrack]

Hey guys,

I am heading away next week for this trip so I will let you know how it all goes following that. I am going to give my kit a trial run tomorrow night to see how it feels. This is what I'm thinking of taking though, clothing/sleeping wise:

- Therm-a-rest RidgeRest SoLite pad
- Therm-a-rest NeoAir Original pad
- Hilleberg Nammatj 2 tent
- An old Outer Limits brand synthetic sleeping bag rated to -1 (have ordered a Katabatic Gear Palisade 30F but it won't arrive in time so have decided to trial a couple of old warmish bags)
- An old "winter rated" Jackeroo Snowfox Hooded down sleeping bag
- Montbell Alpine Light Down Parka
- Polypropylene thermal pants and top
- Merino thermal pants and top
- 3 x 320 weight merino jumpers
- Adidas cotton tracksuit pants (plan to keep these as dry as possible and for sleeping in only)
- 3 x Icebreaker ski socks
- A thick woolen beanie
- A merino neck gaiter
- Mountain Laurel Designs Superlight bivy
- A makeshift vapour barrier liner shirt, pants and socks knocked up out of a bit of waterproof plastic tarp (have bought some silnylon to make up a clothing set for this purpose down the track, but won't have it ready this time round for use)
- Rab Bergan overpants
- The North Face Varius Guide Jacket

I didn't end up getting the Helios or the Volant but instead opted for the Montbell Alpine Light Down Parka. I was able to get it from the states for approx. $200 while the Helios and Volant cost $339 and $409 respectively. I was pretty keen on the Helios though especially since the revised model has a longer length - something that was complained about on several earlier reviews I read. What settled it for me was that the review testers at Outdoor Gear Lab said that the Katabatic quilt could be used down to the low Fahrenheit teens (-10C) when paired with some light wind pants and a Mountain Hardwear Hooded Ghost Whisperer down jacket. Given the Montbell jacket is warmer than the Ghost Whisperer from review, I thought this would be a good combination especially when paired with a bivy, vapour barrier system and clothing as I have mentioned above. I am also looking to lighten my three season bushwalking kit so I thought the quilt, bivy and a tarp could make a pretty lightweight sleeping/shelter system in the future and the down jacket would not be ridiculously warm for cool three season use.

I really liked the look of the Helios and Volant, I just thought for the price, I was better to get the lighter down jacket AND a bivy because of the versatility. Maybe when I get enough money down the track I might look at splashing out on one of these jackets

I guess I will get a better feel tomorrow night but does anyone think this array of gear seems reasonable snow camping? I plan on not venturing too far away anyway next week just in case we run into trouble, and I will be checking the weather forecast to make sure we are not heading up into abnormally cold weather...

Cheers

[Ellobuddha]

Whereabouts are you heading to?

[FootTrack]

Hey Ellobuddha, we are planning on heading to either Mt Hotham or Mt Stirling.

[crispyscapes]

That's a pretty similar setup to me FootTrack. I actually ended up buying the Montbell Mirage Parka haha. A lot of great reviews, especially outdoorgearlabs and I think it will be perfect for KNP. I'll buy the FF Volant in the future for overseas trips.

Here is the gear I will be taking on an eight day KNP trip:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kappdlu0dxd8r3s/Gear%20list%20KNP.JPG

Cheers

[Moondog55]

I sleep cold and even I don't take that many layers. Will you really be wearing all 3 merino sweaters at once?
Will both bags layer-up with out compressing the insulation in one and still leave you enough wriggle room inside to wear the extra clothing?
Great to see you experimenting with the gear you already have tho. Honestly I'd leave the cotton trackies at home.
So both SBs at once or as alternatives?

[rodb2013]

Mt Stirling and out back at Mt Hotham are great. Mt Stirling is obviously up the track and down the track and you will be able to camp on whichever side of the mountain that is sheltered from the wind. Mt Hotham has more options most of which start out to the east past Mary's Slide area heading. I didn't see cross country/touring skis or snow shoes on your list. Might have missed those items in one of your earlier posts. The great thing about Mt Stirling with skis is that while it might take 3-4 hours to get up there, it will only take you 10 minutes to get back to the car, although making the switchback corners can be a challenge. Another popular option is out the back of Mt Baw Baw / Mt St Gwinear. Plenty of great camping spots in the snow gums with shelter from the wind. Gear wise you are probably all sorted by now. Rain and condensation are the problems for gear. Have fun.

[FootTrack]

Hey guys, thanks for the interest in the trip. We ended up heading to Falls Creek from the 8/07 to 9/07. We chose to go there instead as we were a bit nervous about the weather forecast and we were more familiar with the Falls Creek area. Originally we were planning on staying out for 5 days but we chose to head back early because my girlfriend was suffering from a nasty chest infection. I ended up taking the following sleeping gear:

- Therm-a-Rest Trail Lite 3/4 length pad
- Therm-a-Rest NeoAir Original pad
- Hilleberg Nammatj 2 tent
- An old Outer Limits brand synthetic sleeping bag rated to -1
- Montbell Alpine Light Down Parka
- Polypropylene thermal pants and top
- Merino thermal pants and top
- Fleece pants
- 2 x 320 weight merino jumpers
- 3 x Icebreaker ski socks
- Polypropylene sock liners
- A thick woolen beanie
- A merino neck gaiter
- Gore-Tex alpine bivy
- Rab Bergan overpants
- The North Face Varius Guide Jacket
- Polypropylene glove liners
- OR Gripper Gloves
- Lowe Alpine Stormshell Mitts

Our campsite was out at the Rocky Valley Storage Dam wall. The temperature got to around -2*C at night and the lowest I think we had was -4*C at 10 am in the morning. Visibility would have ranged from 100-200 m at a guess for most of the time, with fleeting moments where the cloud/fog would pass and all would be revealed. We had probably 15-20 cm of snow overnight/in the morning and had snow showers on our walk out. Of the above gear I used the tent obviously, two pads, sleeping bag, bivy, polypropylene top and bottoms, two merino jumpers, sock liners and beanie. I felt pretty toasty using this combo.

I think next time I would take a pair of dishwashing gloves as well. The glove liners got wet far too quickly when I had to take my mittens off for extra dexterity. I got pretty cold hands a couple of times as a result. I also would make more of an effort to keep the fuel bottle warm before starting the stove - I found it much more difficult to start in the colder conditions. I will probably invest in a GPS before we head out in the snow again too I think. We didn't get caught out ourselves but I could imagine navigation would become very tricky in white out conditions regardless of how good you were with map and compass. We were also told that the dam could become a trap for the unaware in winter as when snow falls on the ice it can become indistinguishable from solid land. This could mean not knowingly walking out onto the lake and falling through a thin patch of ice I had not thought of this up until the other day and I thought other first timers might benefit from this information also.

All in all we had a fantastic trip even though it was shorter than what we had hoped. We learnt a lot and are looking forward to heading out on our next snow camping trip with more of an idea on what to expect and what to bring. If anyone has any suggestions or questions, I'd be happy to hear them Thanks for your advice Moondog, it was very helpful in planning our trip, and rodb, we will definitely keep those areas in mind for our future planning. To answer your question, we took snowshoes with us as neither of us are confident to travel solely on skis yet. We plan to make this switch sometime in the near future though! How did your trip go crispyscapes? Would you alter your gear list at all? What worked well and what didn't?

[Moondog55]

I did forget to mention the dishwashing glove idea, sorry about that. I'll be heading back up to Falls Creek myself on Friday for the rest of my stay. What I also for got to mention and forgot to do myself was to proof all of my gear with Nikwax before heading up. The DWR on all my gear has washed/worn off so stuff takes an age to dry. I'm fixing that tomorrow when my purchase arrives.
FootTrack why not try and make a return visit to stay with all of us at the Horseyards??

[Gadgetgeek]

Sounds like you had a good learning experience. Cold hands suck, some people can condition to it, and some cannot. I've found that its all about keeping your hands dry, so if you are finding you are having snow-melt dampen your gloves, its better to go without them for a bit, keeping them dry, and then having warm dry mitts to warm your hands up in. I've also found that my hands are the first to get cold as my body runs down on available calories for heat.

As to the navigation in a whiteout. To each his own, and we all have our own personal threshold of risk, so take this in the spirit offered. Whiteouts are far more dangerous that most people give credit for. Even folks who should know better. In my experience its better to set up where you are, and stay put than to risk walking into a situation. If you can navigate landmark to landmark, and can see everyone in your group, then make that decision as you will. But snow conditions change so quickly, that if I was in a position where visibility was dropping, and I was not 100% sure of my surroundings (anything other than my back yard) I would be hunkering down and finding shelter to wait it out. Whiteouts kill people, its that simple. I know I'm making this sound super dramatic, but its just a part of my upbringing, and something drilled into me my entire life.

[FootTrack]

Thanks for the sound advice Gadgetgeek. Certainly not being dramatic at all and I completely understand where you are coming from. I will definitely keep this in the back of my mind when making future decisions. I have not a lot of snow experience myself and don't have any family or friends who are into this type of thing, so the information I pick up from the internet and seasoned forum members like yourself really is invaluable - so thanks (I am sure some of the hints and tips on this forum would save people's skins. At the very least they made my trip a safer and more comfortable experience).

Moondog - thanks for your hints likewise. I chose not to take the Macpac up for that reason and instead went with a friend's Osprey. A lot less sponge-like Thanks for the offer on the Horseyards too! I will definitely try and get up there at some stage. Unfortunately, my uni timetable is quite hectic and tends to dictate things, however, if I get some respite I will be straight in the car Would be very keen to get up there again at least once before the end of the season.